Requiring a BSN degree for an ADN scope of practice

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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I recently attended an interview which BSN nurses were preferred (essentially required but they couldn't say so) but the duties were not upgraded. The position was at an ADN level of knowledge, skill, and ability. A BSN would be very hard pressed to use their advanced skill set in the position. Even with places that do require a BSN degree, the position doesn't require BSN knowledge. With the all shortage of positions and changes in nursing policy I'm sure this a common practice. I am a firm believer in education but this trend makes me uncomfortable. It's a waste of talent and doesn't increase the professionalism of nursing.

Specializes in Family Nursing & Psychiatry.

Doesn't an increase in baccalaureate prepared RNs in hospitals have a positive correlation in lower mortality rates? I think that's a damn good reason to prefer BSN nurses.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
It sounds to like you pretty much did. I explained that earning my BSN didn't change my practice because it was a rehash of previously learned material. Your responce was that I must be perfect. Your responce ignores what I consider to be the more likely explanation that is is the BSN program that is lacking.

If you true got nothing put of your BSN program you either are 1. perfect and your practice is above adjustment, 2. unable to evaluate your own practice and adjust, 3. So biased to refuse to admit your practice was improved, or 4. you failed to put any effort in and so you got nothing out. Even the worst program rehashing everything you already learned should yield some sort of improvement in your practice, unless 100% of the material you learned (in the exact same way) and your recall was 100% and your application was 100%, and that's a lot of 100%s.

We are told that among the reasons to require a BSN is to make one a more well rounded person. Certainly cultural awareness and education must be part of that.

By whom? It doesn't matter what anyone tells you/us. It matters what the research demonstrates. I have never seen a study that evaluates the "well-roundedness" of nurses and outcomes.

I will also label all those who don't advocate for a residency as anti education.

You can label people anything you want. But if you do that you will have to also label people that don't advocate for BSN that or your will be hypocritical.

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No doubt? Based on what?

You talk a lot about the prudent person, but you didn't once mention the profession or the patient....

"No doubt?" Why would you presume that a nurse of many years has not made any efforts to improve his/her practice just because he/she has not pursued a BSN? At the very minimum there are likely to be CEU requirements for license renewal, and remaining current on facility policies and procedures will have been necessary. Why would you presume that a nurse has not made efforts to educate themself just because they have not obtained a BSN?

Patients and the profession are well served by nurses who make an ongoing conscientious effort to improve their knowledge of nursing and medicine, who remain current in their practice, who undertake continuing education and self-study, and who make the effort to study for and obtain specialty certifications.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
"No doubt?" Why would you presume that a nurse of many years has not made any efforts to improve his/her practice just because he/she has not pursued a BSN? At the very minimum there are likely to be CEU requirements for license renewal, and remaining current on facility policies and procedures will have been necessary. Why would you presume that a nurse has not made efforts to educate themself just because they have not obtained a BSN?

Patients and the profession are well served by nurses who make an ongoing conscientious effort to improve their knowledge of nursing and medicine, who remain current in their practice, who undertake continuing education and self-study, and who make the effort to study for and obtain specialty certifications.

The bare minimum, you hit the nail on the head. There are many out there that do just this; I am not saying that anyone here is that person but there are lots out there. They have a pattern. The bare minimum to enter practice. The bare minimum to maintain license. The bare minimum self-study. I know, personally and professionally, that I don't like working with people that do the bare minimum. I don't think the best patient outcomes come from the bare minimum. People that do the bare minimum don't contribute to research, or advocacy, or professional advancement.

I absolutely agree with your second statement. If all nurses made an effort to improve their knowledge, remain current, do continuing education, self-study, and invest in speciality certifications that would be wonderful. But all nurses don't. They don't want to invest the time or the money or the effort. As a profession I don't think we should encourage it.

EDIT: I want to be clear I am not saying that the above posters do the bare minimum. But that mentality is out there. CEU requirements are often circumvented sadly.

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Specializes in Behavioral health.

This will be my last post.

I’m deeply disappointed in the negative feedback I received. I started this thread in the spirit of curiosity not animosity. For the few who have provided me insight I thank you. Before I go please bear in mind a few things.

Allnurses.com is one of the largest and favorite forums dedicated to nursing. Although we are anonymous here, the entire Internet community can see our conversations. The hostility and bullying on these boards does not bring credit to our profession. It proves to the naysayers every negative stereotype and prejudice about nurses. It also intimidates others from posting who have a different point of view. We’re better than that. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Lastly, the Law of Directions and Motives state you cannot have two thoughts at the same time. If look for the bad, you will never see the good.

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Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
This will be my last post.

I’m deeply disappointed in the negative feedback I received. I started this thread in the spirit of curiosity not animosity. For the few who have provided me insight I thank you. Before I go please bear in mind a few things.

Allnurses.com is one of the largest and favorite forums dedicated to nursing. Although we are anonymous here, the entire Internet community can see our conversations. The hostility and bullying on these boards does not bring credit to our profession. It proves to the naysayers every negative stereotype and prejudice about nurses. It also intimidates others from posting who have a different point of view. We’re better than that. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Lastly, the Law of Directions and Motives state you cannot have two thoughts at the same time. If look for the bad, you will never see the good.

meh

your original question was fatally flawed.

you are too sensitive to deal with the consequences of that so fare thee well...

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Specializes in Critical Care.
My response was to those that say their BSN classes made no difference in their practice. There is no strawman there, that's exactly what was said and exactly what I responded to.

Please cite the study that demonstrates MSN/DNP outcomes at the beside yields significantly better outcomes. Then we can discuss.

It's quite possible that is true, RN-BSN programs are typically designed for those who graduated from an older, more out-of-date ADN or diploma program, those who graduated recently are going to find it redundant. There is an advantage to revisiting your education after some time in the field, which would then apply to all grads of any degree type.

These studies very well may show that having a previous chemistry degree, biology degree, or having other more intensive education does actually improve outcomes, but then again that's one of the deficiencies of these studies is that they haven't isolated what produces the differences in outcomes. It's been suggested, among other things, that the additional science pre-reqs some BSN programs require account for at least part of the difference. But since we dont' know what accounts for the difference, we don't know if these differences in outcomes can be applied to all BSN grads, and we all don't know if these differences still exist to degree they did when the nurses in the studies went to school. For all we know it could be that living in dorms for part of your time in school improves patient outcomes, we really have no idea.

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Specializes in Nurse Scientist-Research.
I sometimes wish that someone would finally make the call, just to stop the endless debates that have been raging since the ANA first brought up the BSN entry level statement in 1964. Obviously, if it were so important, it would have happened in the 50 years since.

Sometimes big changes take years and require a lot of hard work, controversy & debate. Not to be overly dramatic but slavery was controversial when the US constitution was drafted but it took decades of debate and major upheaval to change that. Voting rights for women, years of debate. Just because something proposed takes years to implement does not make it an invalid issue.

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Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
If you true got nothing put of your BSN program you either are 1. perfect and your practice is above adjustment, 2. unable to evaluate your own practice and adjust, 3. So biased to refuse to admit your practice was improved, or 4. you failed to put any effort in and so you got nothing out.

Its worse than getting nothing. I am worse for doing it. Becuase of the time I spent in class and doing "work" I missed out on training that was actually valuable and may well have benifited my practice.

You can label people anything you want.

Yes thank you. I am well aware of that.

But if you do that you will have to also label people that don't advocate for BSN that or your will be hypocritical.

Couple things here. First if the advocates of BSN required for practice don't mind being fantasticaly hypocritical then it won't bother me. Second my position is far more nuanced than simply pro or con. I may or may not support BSN as a requirment for practice depending on how it is to be implamented. I will absolutly fight against a two tier system of differenced licenses for ADNs and for BSN. I also will fight against making current ADNs return for their BSN.

Now if the proposal is NOT aimed at getting revenge, or pushing people into unemployment for having the gual to work as RNs with "only" and ADN I might support it. It is abundantly clear to me that many advocates on the BSN to practice side have some other ax to grind and I won't help them do it.

On the other hand if a reasonable proposal was put forward I might very well support it. Reasonable would be to follow the many examples of how other countries and professions did it and grandfather in all the ADNs. When New Zealand started to require a bachelors degree for RNs then didn't make all the exsisting ADN and diploma RNs go back to school. When pharamacy started requiring a doctorate they didn't make all the non doctorate pharmacisits go back for their doctorate. CRNAs are going to require a doctorate by 2025 but they are not making the masters prepared CRNAs go get a doctorate. There are many other examples.

There are other components that would be required for me to support requiring a BSN but that gives you an idea of what I am thinking.

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.... The hostility and bullying on these boards does not bring credit to our profession. It proves to the naysayers every negative stereotype and prejudice about nurses. It also intimidates others from posting who have a different point of view. We’re better than that. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

I've just been following the thread without partaking, as I find it interesting but don't feel I have much personally to contribute to it. That said, I DO have to say I have failed to see any of this "bullying" of which you speak. How has anyone been "bullied"?

People have posted dissenting opinions. People have said why they disagreed with another's POV. People have even declared someone unequivocally wrong....and so what? It's a discussion and a debate.

If no one here has been forced to commit an act against his will, I fail to see what "bullying" occurred. And the reason I am focused on that at the moment is because the word 'bully' is so often misused, so often tossed about ANYTIME someone comes face-to-face (ok, face-to-webpage) with someone who has no difficulty stating his or her own opinions when asked.

I believe those who ask for debate and then are upset when someone does JUST THAT have no business asking for debate, period. Very bad form, even.

Perhaps that makes me a bully to some? If so....I can live with that.

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Somewhat off topic, but I don't feel at all guilty for not reading any of the CEU material provided by my employer. I skip straight to the post test and rarely get less than 100%.

The reading material and test questions are assinine. The people who put them together ought to be ashamed. Whatever real "continuing education" I have had since graduation has been purely independent study. Heck, being a regular reader of Allnurses threads should count more towards one's CEU requirements than those stupid worksheets/computer programs HR trots out a few times a year.

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Specializes in OR, Nursing Professional Development.
Somewhat off topic, but I don't feel at all guilty for not reading any of the CEU material provided by my employer. I skip straight to the post test and rarely get less than 100%.

The reading material and test questions are assinine. The people who put them together ought to be ashamed. Whatever real "continuing education" I have had since graduation has been purely independent study. Heck, being a regular reader of Allnurses threads should count more towards one's CEU requirements than those stupid worksheets/computer programs HR trots out a few times a year.

I don't even count those as part of my required CE for license renewal. I prefer stuff that counts and is relevant either to my current field of practice or to the nursing education degree I haven't yet put to use.

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