Requiring a BSN degree for an ADN scope of practice

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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I recently attended an interview which BSN nurses were preferred (essentially required but they couldn't say so) but the duties were not upgraded. The position was at an ADN level of knowledge, skill, and ability. A BSN would be very hard pressed to use their advanced skill set in the position. Even with places that do require a BSN degree, the position doesn't require BSN knowledge. With the all shortage of positions and changes in nursing policy I'm sure this a common practice. I am a firm believer in education but this trend makes me uncomfortable. It's a waste of talent and doesn't increase the professionalism of nursing.

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
You are putting words in my mouth and you are really taking this too personal.

Calm Down, take a deep breath.

Hi Mr. BSN: Please pay attention to your grammar. One doesn't take things to "personal." Only mentioning it because you are fortunate enough to have a four year degree. Did they let you write like that in college?

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Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
Thank you. Right now in my MSN program, I have to write a paper from the viewpoint of a CNO who wants to bring Magnet to their facility, and has to get buy-in from nursing staff. I'm supposed to talk about how great and beneficial it is. The problem is that I think it's all a crock. I was lamenting to my husband about how am I going to write a convincing paper on something I do not believe. He said "Just pretend you're Sam Seaborn and you're writing the opposition paper." :)

Didn't that BSN give you the credentials to pursue a MSN? Writing opposition papers is a good thing.

I think I mentioned this on another thread, so forgive me if this is old, but an acquaintance had to write a short article critical of Mother Theresa and it was a difficult assignment but he got it done:).

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Here is the abstract for an article that looks at staffing ratios and nurse education levels and how they relate to patient outcomes (this was written by Aiken as well): Nurse staffing and education and hospital mortality in nine European countries: a retrospective observational study : The Lancet .

I fear for a profession whose members look suspiciously at requiring more education of its members, or who devise reasons why it is not necessary. This is one reason why the medical profession and the nursing profession are miles apart.

I believe this study was discussed on the Nursing News Forum some time ago: "New Study Shows Nurse Education Level, Caseload, Affect Patient Mortality." If you haven't already read this discussion, I recommend doing so.[h=1][/h]

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Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
Didn't that BSN give you the credentials to pursue a MSN?

Not sure what you mean by that?

Hi Mr. BSN: Please pay attention to your grammar. One doesn't take things to "personal." Only mentioning it because you are fortunate enough to have a four year degree. Did they let you write like that in college?

BTW, I really think it's poor form to attack someone's grammar or spelling in a thread that is completely unrelated to grammar or spelling.

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Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.

While I can understand why you might feel that way, I can hardly think of anything more likely to cause outrage and infighting in nursing. I think this exact idea is one of the biggest hurdles to BSN as entry to practice.

I agree that it would get ugly and painful. But it needs to be done. I think it would be better to do the work and get it over with than to drag it on for another 50 years.

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Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.
The people that make the argument that more education hasn't changed their practice at all either really impress me or really scare me. Either they are the perfect nurse or they are too self-confident to reflect on/evaluate their practice and make appropriate changes.

I for one change my practice nearly every day with every article I read, conversation I have, research studies I work on, and my doctoral classes.

Practice should be dynamic. If you can take a class and then not apply it to your practice you are likely not getting anything out because you put nothing in.

I just wanted to quote this post because it is so wonderful. Anyone who spends so much time and money going from ADN to BSN who claims they didn't learn anything of value either wasn't paying attention ... or had a bad attitude and was refusing to learn anything. We should all be improving our practice based on our experiences as we go.

Those who won't or can't learn and improve should retire before they hurt somebody.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
My BSN didn't change my practice. The reason why is that is didn't contain any education that was new to me, or for that matter related to nursing.

I guess that's where we differ: I don't think education has to new-to-you or directly related to nursing to be beneficial to your practice. There are many things that I learned and forgot and learned again that have changed my practice, hey maybe you are perfect and never forget anything, but for mere mortals like me it's helpful.

I have also taken classes totally unrelated to nursing that have helped me think better, relate to my patients better, and be a better teacher. All of which is good for me. And for nursing.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
The people that make the argument that more education hasn't changed their practice at all either really impress me or really scare me. Either they are the perfect nurse or they are too self-confident to reflect on/evaluate their practice and make appropriate changes.

I for one change my practice nearly every day with every article I read, conversation I have, research studies I work on, and my doctoral classes.

Practice should be dynamic. If you can take a class and then not apply it to your practice you are likely not getting anything out because you put nothing in.

You're making a bit of a strawman argument. I don't think there's a general belief that education is bad on that side of the argument, the question is if that's the best way to do it and the best use of that time time and money.

All additional education is beneficial. Nurses who get an additional degree in biology will benefit compared to those who don't. Nurses at the bedside who get a masters or DNP will benefit, so why don't we require all nurses to have biology, chemistry, and psychology degrees as well as masters or DNP degrees?

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
You're making a bit of a strawman argument. I don't think there's a general belief that education is bad on that side of the argument, the question is if that's the best way to do it and the best use of that time time and money.

All additional education is beneficial. Nurses who get an additional degree in biology will benefit compared to those who don't. Nurses at the bedside who get a masters or DNP will benefit, so why don't we require all nurses to have biology, chemistry, and psychology degrees as well as masters or DNP degrees?

My response was to those that say their BSN classes made no difference in their practice. There is no strawman there, that's exactly what was said and exactly what I responded to.

Please cite the study that demonstrates MSN/DNP outcomes at the beside yields significantly better outcomes. Then we can discuss.

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Specializes in ICU.

I would like to ask this question and I am hoping someone can answer it for me. How can a PA have an associate's, bachelor's, or master's? Or are we referring to medical assistants as PAs. I thought they were different things. I thought PAs were like nurse practioners almost, but they focused on the doctor's way of thinking, where a NP focused on the nursing side. I thought a medical assistant was more like a CNA but with an associates degree. My son had a head laceration last weekend and a PA put a staple in his head and treated him. We never saw a doc which was fine for that. The PA did a good job. So if someone can explain this to me, I will have learned something new today. :yeah:

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

PAs are similar to NPs in many aspects.

MAs are somewhere on a spectrum between CNAs and nurses.

PAs, at one time, were certificate programs. They have since moved (nearly entirely) to master-level entry. They have always been academically rigorous programs with highly selective admissions.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
So is it necessary to respond to that with telling those that have a BSN that their extra time in school is worthless and only taught them to write a paper in APA format?

The arguments are always, "But I have experience!!!" Guess what, there are a few people with BSNs that have been a nurse for more than a week. Or, "I have kids/life/whatever, I don't have time/money for more school." Some of us made the sacrifice, and deserve a little credit for that. Or, "I have a degree in something else!" Good for you! If anything was the waste of time, the degree in an unrelated field was, not the degree in what you want to do now.

I'm sooooo tired of walking on eggshells. Can't DARE say my degree is "better" because it will hurt someone's feelings, but get to listen to everyone tell me how worthless the extra time I spent going to school was.

Your sacrifice was your choice. You chose to go back, spend the money and get your BSN. Yeah for you! If you want to broadcast it from the rooftops go ahead. If you want to hang your diploma for everyone to see go ahead. I do hope that the time and money was worth it to you and others. I would hope you got a good raise at work for this accomplishment, but chances are you didn't, unless you work for the VA.

Not everyone feels the same. Those of us who value other things more than school, such as family or being debt free or saving for retirement so we don't have to work forever don't deserve to be devalued because we didn't run out and get a BSN. I feel sorry for the many grads out there drowning in student loan debt that they will spend decades if not their entire life paying off. I'm glad I made the choice not to indebt myself going to school later in life just to have a few more letters after my name! It is a good feeling to have money in the bank instead of student loans to pay off! Student loans are the worst debt out there, toxic and like the poison of the flu vaccine that the hospitals have decided to force on their staff! At least I have a choice re student loans!

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