Requiring a BSN degree for an ADN scope of practice

[Gentleman_nurse]

I recently attended an interview which BSN nurses were preferred (essentially required but they couldn't say so) but the duties were not upgraded. The position was at an ADN level of knowledge, skill, and ability. A BSN would be very hard pressed to use their advanced skill set in the position. Even with places that do require a BSN degree, the position doesn't require BSN knowledge. With the all shortage of positions and changes in nursing policy I'm sure this a common practice. I am a firm believer in education but this trend makes me uncomfortable. It's a waste of talent and doesn't increase the professionalism of nursing.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

Those of us who value other things more than school, such as family or being debt free or saving for retirement so we don't have to work forever don't deserve to be devalued...

From a professional perspective, isn't stating you chose to value your personal agenda over improving your professional practice devaluing yourself?

[klone, MSN, RN]

I've found that the best investment in my retirement fund has been advancing my degree.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

I guess that's where we differ: I don't think education has to new-to-you or directly related to nursing to be beneficial to your practice. There are many things that I learned and forgot and learned again that have changed my practice, hey maybe you are perfect and never forget anything, but for mere mortals like me it's helpful.

I have also taken classes totally unrelated to nursing that have helped me think better, relate to my patients better, and be a better teacher. All of which is good for me. And for Ya, thatcan be only explanation right? I am perfect. It can't possibly be the case thatBSN programs include regurgitation of previously obtained education? There can'tpossibly be any room for improvement in BSN programs to make them more relevant.

In my view anyone who hasn't experience atotal cultural emersion in a different culture, like for example living with adifferent country for an extended period of time, is lacking in their cultural education.I could also say that those nurses who refused to participate in a post-graduationresidency program as I did don't value education.

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

From a professional perspective, isn't stating you chose to value your personal agenda over improving your professional practice devaluing yourself?

Not this martyr mentality again, this angel of mercy, that nurses are supposed to put everyone else first! How dare I think of my own personal survival, needs and well being, instead of being the self sacrificing angel of mercy! On top of that I'm supposed to not only put the patients first, overlooking the swearing, cursing, hitting and rude ones, but also the "profession". We will never agree on this. It is this self sacrificing atmosphere inherent in nursing that has contributed to the poor staffing and pay in many hospitals! God forbid nurses would think of themselves first and stand up for a safe and fair work environment. Putting myself into student loan debt will magically uplift my profession and improve my life. I just don't think so!

[PMFB-RN, RN]

I would like to ask this question and I am hoping someone can answer it for me. How can a PA have an associate's, bachelor's, or master's? Or are we referring to medical assistants as PAs. I thought they were different things. I thought PAs were like nurse practioners almost, but they focused on the doctor's way of thinking, where a NP focused on the nursing side. I thought a medical assistant was more like a CNA but with an associates degree. My son had a head laceration last weekend and a PA put a staple in his head and treated him. We never saw a doc which was fine for that. The PA did a good job. So if someone can explain this to me, I will have learned something new today.

Absolutly NOT talking about medical asisstants. PAs have multiple entry paths to practice just like RNs do. Yes PAs and NPs aften have very similar jobs and in many cases do the same work.

At this time one can enter PA practice with an associates degree, a bachelors degree, or a masters degree. The associates degree programs are few in number and becomeing fewer all the time. This is mostly related to the very high number of credits a PA program requires.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

Who said BSN programs can't be improved? Of course they can, I have never once seen anyone argue that they can't.

On the other side of that coin did you research the best and most rigorous BSN program around? Or did you opt for the cheapest, easiest, quickest?

If you have a study we can read demonstrating better outcomes for nurses that were immersed in another culture, share it!

You probably were or are a better nurse than those that didn't do the residency program. I am sure you agree with that and would argue that other nurses should. There is research to support that, if you want to argue that as entry to practice, I won't argue.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

What does BSBM stand for? I looked it up, and all I found was bachelors of science in business management, and bible study by mail.

I apologize. I reversed the letters. That should be BMBS. It is the bachelors degree granted by many medical schools that follow the British model of medical education. I work with many physicians who do not hold any doctorate but instead hold the BMBS degree. Typicaly the BMBS degree is earned in 5 to 6 total years of post high school education. In every hospital I have ever worked BMBS physicians had "MD" on their badge, despite the fact that they did not have an MD degree. So it is likely that you also work with physicians who do not have a doctorate and don't even know it.

Medical doctors and osteopathic doctors both attend four years of medical school, after which they both must obtain licensure, and then both must spend time in residency. There is no difference in the amount of time they spend in school/training. The focus of the two programs is different. So comparison of MDs & DOs versus ASN & BSN nurses is a case of apples and oranges.

Maybe for MD & DO that is true, but it's not true for the BMBS physicians. In addition I would make the case that the differences between the ADN and the BSN are similar to the differences between MD & DO. Similar, nearly the same programs with different names.

In order to gain entrance into a PA program, you must have a four year degree. So what do you mean by "multiple entry paths"?

That is not the case. There are associates degree (few in number), bachelors degree, and masters degree PA programs.

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[Susie2310]

From a professional perspective, isn't stating you chose to value your personal agenda over improving your professional practice devaluing yourself?

No, she is not devaluing herself. Your comment is ridiculously idealistic. No doubt brandy1017 has made many efforts at improving her professional practice, i.e. work place education; CEU's; self-study, even if she hasn't pursued a BSN. A prudent person with a family, approaching retirement, will sensibly choose not to take on debt that will be a burden to them, that they may never be able to pay off.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Who said BSN programs can't be improved? Of course they can, I have never once seen anyone argue that they can't.

It sounds to like you pretty much did. I explained that earning my BSN didn't change my practice because it was a rehash of previously learned material. Your responce was that I must be perfect. Your responce ignores what I consider to be the more likely explanation that is is the BSN program that is lacking.

On the other side of that coin did you research the best and most rigorous BSN program around? Or did you opt for the cheapest, easiest, quickest?

I chose a well respected state university in the sate where I work. A university with a very large school of nursing offering everything from the basic BSN program to dnp programs in CRNA, CNS, and NP and well known for research. It was a blended program partly online, with a weekly in class meeting. The classes where held right in my hospital. It is the program chosen by my health system and the degree was offered free of charge to certain employees. I was even permitted to do much of the "work" while on paid time.

If you have a study we can read demonstrating better outcomes for nurses that were immersed in another culture, share it!

We are told that among the reasons to require a BSN is to make one a more well rounded person. Certainly cultural awareness and education must be part of that.

You probably were or are a better nurse than those that didn't do the residency program. I am sure you agree with that

I would agree that those nurses who elected to do a rigerous and well desinged residency have a leg up on those who refused to do so.

and would argue that other nurses should. There is research to support that, if you want to argue that as entry to practice, I won't argue

I would support a residency as entry to practice. I will also label all those who don't advocate for a residency as anti education.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

I agree that it would get ugly and painful. But it needs to be done. I think it would be better to do the work and get it over with than to drag it on for another 50 years.

I respectfully disagree. There is no need to re-invent the wheel here. If we decide that a bachelors degree should be required for entry to practice then we should simply grandfather in all the ADNs and anounce a date after which a bachelors in nursing will be required to sit for NCLEX. Make the date far enough into the future so that all the schools of nursing who do not grant a bachelors degree can develope a stratagy to do so.

That is exactly what everybody else did when they increased their entry requirments.

I strongly suspect the TRUE motivations of those who wish to proceed down the two different licensure path. I pretty much have to assume that their true motivation isn't really a bachelors educated nursing work force.

[wooh, BSN, RN]

Your sacrifice was your choice. You chose to go back, spend the money and get your BSN. Yeah for you! If you want to broadcast it from the rooftops go ahead. If you want to hang your diploma for everyone to see go ahead. I do hope that the time and money was worth it to you and others. I would hope you got a good raise at work for this accomplishment, but chances are you didn't, unless you work for the VA.

Not everyone feels the same. Those of us who value other things more than school, such as family or being debt free or saving for retirement so we don't have to work forever don't deserve to be devalued because we didn't run out and get a BSN. I feel sorry for the many grads out there drowning in student loan debt that they will spend decades if not their entire life paying off. I'm glad I made the choice not to indebt myself going to school later in life just to have a few more letters after my name! It is a good feeling to have money in the bank instead of student loans to pay off! Student loans are the worst debt out there, toxic and like the poison of the flu vaccine that the hospitals have decided to force on their staff! At least I have a choice re student loans!

Your choice to not sacrifice for your profession does show that your value to the profession should be less. I'm far from a martyr, but a four year degree is far from asking you to become Mother Teresa.

[BostonFNP, APRN]

No, she is not devaluing herself. Your comment is ridiculously idealistic. No doubt brandy1017 has made many efforts at improving her professional practice, i.e. work place education; CEU's; self-study, even if she hasn't pursued a BSN. A prudent person with a family, approaching retirement, will sensibly choose not to take on debt that will be a burden to them, that they may never be able to pay off.

No doubt? Based on what?

Perhaps it is idealistic that the nursing profession should encourage education known to produce better outcomes, but shouldn't a profession be idealistic?

You talk a lot about the prudent person, but you didn't once mention the profession or the patient....