Requiring a BSN degree for an ADN scope of practice

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I recently attended an interview which BSN nurses were preferred (essentially required but they couldn't say so) but the duties were not upgraded. The position was at an ADN level of knowledge, skill, and ability. A BSN would be very hard pressed to use their advanced skill set in the position. Even with places that do require a BSN degree, the position doesn't require BSN knowledge. With the all shortage of positions and changes in nursing policy I'm sure this a common practice. I am a firm believer in education but this trend makes me uncomfortable. It's a waste of talent and doesn't increase the professionalism of nursing.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
Somewhat off topic, but I don't feel at all guilty for not reading any of the CEU material provided by my employer. I skip straight to the post test and rarely get less than 100%.

The reading material and test questions are assinine. The people who put them together ought to be ashamed. Whatever real "continuing education" I have had since graduation has been purely independent study. Heck, being a regular reader of Allnurses threads should count more towards one's CEU requirements than those stupid worksheets/computer programs HR trots out a few times a year.

This highlights the problem, and its not just you. I hear it quite often that nurses "skip to the end" and just take the quiz 'till they pass; same thing with their BLS and ACLS, they use the cheap and easy internet program with unlimited retakes.

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Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
This highlights the problem, and its not just you. I hear it quite often that nurses "skip to the end" and just take the quiz 'till they pass; same thing with their BLS and ACLS, they use the cheap and easy internet program with unlimited retakes.

Aside from BLS and ACLS all the hospital computer based training I have ever experienced was useless drivel. Mostly it has nothing to do with practice and is just for the hospital to cover their butt on legal issues like HIPAA.

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This highlights the problem, and its not just you. I hear it quite often that nurses "skip to the end" and just take the quiz 'till they pass; same thing with their BLS and ACLS, they use the cheap and easy internet program with unlimited retakes.

Perhaps the problem is not that nurses skip to the end and successfully pass the quiz without reading the material, perhaps the REAL problem is the material is not providing any new education to the reader? If it were truly 'continuing education', designed to instruct the reader in something, then one should NOT be able to simply take the post-test and pass easily. Unless someone has remarkable psychic abilities, one should not be able to get a 90-100% without actually reading the test material. Barring new information that requires the tester to LEARN something, it's really just a review test, not CE, isn't it?

As for the cheap and easy internet program with unlimited retakes, I think that's a different problem, a different situation.

The situation Brandon describes is one in which employers provide 'continuing education' from the so-called 'education department' and all it is, really, is repeat and reviewed information that the staff should already know.

In order to learn something new, one must seek out courses that ARE challenging, and I think the point being made is that oftentimes, they aren't. Which, IMHO, is a genuine problem for those who seek to honestly broaden their horizons, who seek to learn NEW information, UPDATED information. Not just reinforce the "yup, I knew that" way of thinking.

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Specializes in Critical Care.

There is certainly value to ongoing education and even just review, and if time wasn't a finite commodity then there wouldn't as much of a reason to use that available time wisely. What I still don't understand is why if repeating a year of your nursing program (in the form of an RN-BSN) is so beneficial it should be required for ADN grads, why wouldn't the same be true of BSN grads?

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Specializes in Critical Care.

What I don't understand is why there is a minority that wants to impose a BSN mandate on current ADN RN's. As others have noted no other specialty that increased education requirements forced their older members to go back to school to get a higher degree. Instead they were grandfathered in and their experience was valued. Why is that not the case with nurses and this from fellow nurses? Is it jealousy that some of us are working with less education or less student loan debt? Or do you want to get rid of the older nurses to make way for all the new grad BSN's? Why do you care so much and feel the need to judge those of us who have made a decision not to get further education? Why does it bother you so much? What is ironic is that many ADN's have other education including BA/BS yet this fact is ignored in the quest by a vocal minority to force every working RN to go back to school for a BSN. Those of us who choose not to go back are subjected to criticism and ridicule claiming we are basically less of a nurse and not worthy of this great nursing profession and are giving inadequate patient care. I don't put the profession on a pedestal. The nursing profession makes up millions of nurses in many different capacities.

What is your point in harping about the all mighty BSN? Are you trying to guilt people into going back to school or trying to make them feel less than? Are you trying to force BSN mandation for all just to prove your point and those of us who don't have the BSN should just be shown to the unemployment line.

A professional is supposed to be treated with respect, not coerced to do things like flu vaccines and BSN mandates etc, etc. Yet nurses are many times treated just this way which is not very professional if you ask me! Is this the nursing profession you seek where nurses need to be coerced and have no right to make their own decisions.

This disrespectful tone by management is one of the things that contributes to burn out and to nurses leaving the field! Ironic that while management loves to coerce, they don't bother to protect their staff by providing a safe no lift environment complete with ceiling lifts, but that costs them money. We are just supposed to risk our lives and back and then once we are older we are supposed to find a different job when we have back pain. Why fix the system problem when you can just scapegoat the worker and tell them to leave! This is a great profession we have! Note the sarcasm! But we should all run back to school to elevate this great profession that has treated many of us so well! I don't think so!

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Specializes in ICU.

Most of the hospitals in my area DO hire ADN new grads. We just hired new grads for our ICU, as a matter of fact, and not one of them has a BSN. I am fully aware that there are hospitals that require a BSN, but apparently that is the minority, not the majority, of hospitals. If you read the posts on this site, you would think no ADN could ever possibly get a job, and that is NOT TRUE!

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

Why do you care so much and feel the need to judge those of us who have made a decision not to get further education? Why does it bother you so much?

What is your point in harping about the all mighty BSN?

Sometimes I really wonder why I keep carrying this torch, it doesn't effect me all that much and I just makes me unpopular, but here it is anyways...

It bothers me that nurses think it's ok not to further their education. We work in a rapidly changing healthcare system with rapidly changing technology where we are responsible for the lives of other people. So yes it bother me when nurses just think the easy cheap fast bare minimum way is the best.

The point in harping about the BSN is that there are a dozen major studies that demonstrate improved outcomes. People can "debate" the studies but I have yet to have anyone show me a study that refutes them.

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Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

It bothers me that nurses think it's ok not to further their education. We work in a rapidly changing healthcare system with rapidly changing technology where we are responsible for the lives of other people.

You say that yet you are never an advocate for furthering education, just the BSN degree.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
You say that yet you are never an advocate for furthering education, just the BSN degree.

Lol really? Because I was the one that started this conversation about CEUs as another example of the problem with education.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
Sometimes I really wonder why I keep carrying this torch, it doesn't effect me all that much and I just makes me unpopular, but here it is anyways...

It bothers me that nurses think it's ok not to further their education. We work in a rapidly changing healthcare system with rapidly changing technology where we are responsible for the lives of other people. So yes it bother me when nurses just think the easy cheap fast bare minimum way is the best.

The point in harping about the BSN is that there are a dozen major studies that demonstrate improved outcomes. People can "debate" the studies but I have yet to have anyone show me a study that refutes them.

We will never agree. Education is a continuous lifelong part of nursing thru hospital classes re new technology and treatments, ACLS, certifications, CEU's and seminars. You simply discount these educational avenues and focus on BSN alone. Truth is many of the classes will be a rehash of classes ADN nurses already received as we both pass the same boards. There are ways to encourage BSN rather than mandating it but most hospitals aren't interested in such things as real tuition reimbursement and student loan forgiveness, making sure nurses have a realistic schedule at work to go back to school. Lastly actually paying for a BSN in a real wage improvement! The only hospital system I know that actually does all this is the VA system! They were at the forefront of computer technology and med scanning as well as a no lift environment. Why don't the rest of the hospitals in America follow suit! Instead its about the cheapest route and coercion and mandation and disrespect!

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Specializes in Critical Care.
We will never agree. Education is a continuous lifelong part of nursing thru hospital classes re new technology and treatments, ACLS, certifications, CEU's and seminars. You simply discount these educational avenues and focus on BSN alone. Truth is many of the classes will be a rehash of classes ADN nurses already received as we both pass the same boards. There are ways to encourage BSN rather than mandating it but most hospitals aren't interested in such things as real tuition reimbursement and student loan forgiveness, making sure nurses have a realistic schedule at work to go back to school. Lastly actually paying for a BSN in a real wage improvement! The only hospital system I know that actually does all this is the VA system! They were at the forefront of computer technology and med scanning as well as a no lift environment. Why don't the rest of the hospitals in America follow suit! Instead its about the cheapest route and coercion and mandation and disrespect!

To Boston FNP I'm curious how you are funding all the education you have taken on. Do you have a working spouse, a generous tuition reimbursement, a better paying job than most or an inheritence. How much student loan debt are you in and how long will it take you to pay it off? I work with many new BSN's in six figure student loan debt that will take decades to pay off! Student loan debt has no consumer protections, you cannot declare bankruptcy, you will find your social security garnished if it is not paid off. I'm still paying off my student loans from past college and simply will not go back into debt for a BSN that will not increase my pay and will take precious money away from daily living, emergency savings and retirement. Nothing you say will change my mind on this. To me nursing is a job and I as many others are disillusioned about the reality of nursing! So if you think nurses like me are less than so be it. Many of us are not thrilled with the reality of nursing and why would we make a further investment of hard earned money and time when we are not appreciated in the first place! If I were rich I would retire already and do something fun as there is nothing fun about nursing! I'm saving every penny I can so I can retire sooner and still have my health and my back to actually enjoy life! The response to this is just to get a different job and most other jobs such as home health, clinic and case management require a substantial pay cut, once again, showing how nursing is so appreciated, not! I live in the real world and do not have the luxury of taking a pay cut!

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
We will never agree. Education is a continuous lifelong part of nursing thru hospital classes re new technology and treatments, ACLS, certifications, CEU's and seminars. You simply discount these educational avenues and focus on BSN alone.

I am sure we will never agree because no matter the extent of the body of evidence you will be too biased to agree. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I absolutely don't focus on BSN alone. That is simply the topic of this tread, though I did bring up the CEU component problem.

So you can honestly look at the posts above and your own experience and say the hospital CEUs are enough "education" to maintain your "lifelong learning"?

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