What to do about DNP and flu shot?

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I am finishing my MSN soon, and had thought that I would get my DNP. However, I am second guessing this after a big ordeal from my school about me not taking a flu shot. My hospital does not require it if I wear a mask. I hate to put the time and money into getting a DNP, and at some point be required to take a flu shot to work in nursing. I WILL NOT. I will change careers. I’m not looking for pro flu shot comments here. However, I am looking for advice and useful information on what you think the future holds in this matter. I also have an MBA, and can just as easily go into a DBA program.

3 hours ago, Banana nut said:

Do i have a choice in having multiple sclerosis? Or to be born with Fetal alcohol syndrome? Do i have a choice in getting older? I could keep going...

Straw man arguments don't hold much water.

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4 hours ago, Banana nut said:

Do i have a choice in having multiple sclerosis? Or to be born with Fetal alcohol syndrome? Do i have a choice in getting older? I could keep going...

That is an insulting statement to those patients who are actually suffering from those diseases. Try asking a patient with an MS flare. He or she will tell you, " tell you what, after my IV steroid and plasmapheresis is completed and I feel I bit better, I would love to give you a good uppercut."

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OP, I don’t understand how you can be going for your DNP and want to educate future nurses but not believe in EBP. It makes no sense.

This is not about people having differing beliefs, like say religion. The flu shot is science. And if you want to educate, you should be educated yourself.

As for paying for patient cremations, and giving away money to them, that is crossing a very ethical line. You better be careful doing that. I’ve helped coworkers in a time of need, but never a patient or family. It’s scary that you also think that is ok. I would think after 17 years in nursing, you would know this amongst other things.

And FYI, I’ve never had a drink and then drove, I don’t text and drive, nor use my phone at all and drive.

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7 hours ago, Banana nut said:

Thank you for your response; I understand that the virus antigens can change, but the efficacy of the vaccine is ~20% as it is, so I feel if they aren't going to see if ive been previously exposed or if im already immune to what they are trying to inject me with it feels like bad science. Like throwing darts blindfolded with my personal health at risk and with very low odds of a reward if any at all.

Some years it's low, some years much higher. But your second point in bold is patently false.

Even if a person who gets a flu shot goes on to get the flu, there is a high chance that the flu shot will lessen the severity of the illness and reduce the chances of severe complications and death. That is clearly a benefit ("reward").

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Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
On 1/30/2020 at 12:49 PM, Travelingon said:

I’m not looking for pro flu shot comments here. However, I am looking for advice and useful information on what you think the future holds in this matter. I also have an MBA, and can just as easily go into a DBA program.

Then dont come to a nursing website and ask us to ignore the screes of scientific evidence to help you find a work around and potentially put health compromised patients at risk of death

And I think you need to find another career

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Specializes in Acute care, primary care, and community nursing.
On 2/2/2020 at 10:08 AM, SummitRN said:

I'm going to be blunt. You don't know what you don't know, both about basic immunology and influenza.

First, chances are that you are probably wrong about not having had the flu in 30 years. You probably have had flu, and you didn't realize it. Most flu cases are subclinical. You can still spread it. That is why we make healthcare workers mask who are not vaccinated. That is why we ask healthcare workers to mask if they are slightly under the weather, because what is mild in them may be deadly if spread to a patient.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(14)70034-7/fulltext

Second, you probably aren't immune to flu. Flu is not a a fixed monolith. It is a mutating swarm. There are multiple strains and subtypes circulating at any one time, and those change year to year. The antigens are so different that exposure to one subtype does not confer improved immune response to another. Flu is a segmented RNA virus with antigens that maintain function despite mutations sufficient to fool the immune system (unlike say measles) which means that you could catch 2 or 3 strains of flu in one season because they are different enough that the immune system won't recognize them, and then mutations between seasons have enough difference to for you to catch each subtype again (although with some improved response). That is why the flu vaccine "changes" every year, to cover the 4 most likely sets of presenting antigens.

Third, you are wrong about thoroughly testing flu vaccine because it is "new" each year. It is not a whole new vaccine every year. Just the antigens change.

Your post is awesome.

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On 1/29/2020 at 3:49 PM, Travelingon said:

I am finishing my MSN soon, and had thought that I would get my DNP. However, I am second guessing this after a big ordeal from my school about me not taking a flu shot. My hospital does not require it if I wear a mask. I hate to put the time and money into getting a DNP, and at some point be required to take a flu shot to work in nursing. I WILL NOT. I will change careers. I’m not looking for pro flu shot comments here. However, I am looking for advice and useful information on what you think the future holds in this matter. I also have an MBA, and can just as easily go into a DBA program.

I have no clue as to how is it possible that you are finishing your MSN and considering DNP without using EBP in your frame of mind. I am an APRN who came from a research driven school. your statement I WILL NOT sounds egotistical which I believe is not a virtue of the nursing profession. Your DNP admission is contingent upon meeting the requirements of the school. You will have an enormous role in our healthcare and to the lives of many patients. IF YOU CHOOSE NOT get vaccinated then DON'T and don't expect the school adjust to your personal preference. There, dilemma SOLVED.

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OP- I just have to ask- Have you not read threads on this site regarding flu shots? This might be the worst possible place on earth to go for advice on how to become a person who leads and influences nurses despite your objection to the flu vaccine. It would be like going to a dietician site and asking about setting up a practice based on spare ribs and ice cream sundaes. Clearly not going to end well.

Predictably, you have supporters.

Like the one linking to a book widely discounted by the scientific community, based on studies that have since been shown to be wrong.

Or the one who used the term "government require vaccines" (or something similarly goofy) based on her belief that the CDC manufactures the flu vax.

Then you have Banana nut, who in claiming that he/she is being forced to have a vaccine, went with this bizzare comparison: "Do i have a choice in having multiple sclerosis? Or to be born with Fetal alcohol syndrome? Do i have a choice in getting older? I could keep going..."

Balance those supporters with all of the posts citing valid scientific evidence- exactly the stuff we expect nursing educators and leaders to rely on.

Then, to top it off, in support of your argument, you equate your choices with other reckless and irresponsible decisions that put innocent people at risk: "I also wonder how many of them have sent a text while driving, or have possibly driven after having a drink. They're putting others' lives at risk with that behavior, too." Agreed- they are also endangering others, and should stop.

While I question your judgement in not being vaccinated, I really question your judgement in posting here, thinking it would go well.

There are definitely places you might get support and advice:

https://nursesagainstmandatoryvaccines.wordpress.com/

https://www.facebook.com/Nursesagainstallvaccines/

These sites are full of misinformation and would be a much better place to get support and advice.

BTW- found an interesting study. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5410084/

Didn't read or analyze it, just scanned it and read the conclusion:

Quote

Nurses tend to rely on conventional health beliefs rather than evidence based medicine when making their decision to decline influenza vaccination. Interventions to increase influenza vaccination should be tailored specifically for nurses. Empowering nurses by promoting decision-making skills and by strengthening their appraisal may be important factors to consider when planning future interventions to improve vaccination rates. The teaching of evidence-based decision-making should be integrated on different levels, including nurses' training curricula, their workspace and further education.

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3 hours ago, hherrn said:

...and asking about setting up a practice based on spare ribs and ice cream sundaes.

off topic, but I would totally go to your practice if you did this! ?

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Just going to leave this here... it's an EAQ question I came upon while studying for an upcoming test.

FluEAQ.jpg
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Specializes in ICU, LTACH, Internal Medicine.
On 2/10/2020 at 8:00 AM, hherrn said:

BTW- found an interesting study.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5410084/

Didn't read or analyze it, just scanned it and read the conclusion:

Quote

Nurses tend to rely on conventional health beliefs rather than evidence based medicine when making their decision to decline influenza vaccination. Interventions to increase influenza vaccination should be tailored specifically for nurses. Empowering nurses by promoting decision-making skills and by strengthening their appraisal may be important factors to consider when planning future interventions to improve vaccination rates. The teaching of evidence-based decision-making should be integrated on different levels, including nurses' training curricula, their workspace and further education.

I know I risk to direct conversation into entirely different area. Sorry if it happens, but...

The thing is, despite of the avalanche of "nursing research", "nursing diagnosis", accent on EBM in schools and so forth at the present time nursing as it is in the USA remains clearly anti-science at large.

A typical nursing education involves 1 to 4 years in college or university. The shorter the program (as they are for LPNs), the closer they are to good old-fashioned nursing which was mostly based on old wives' tales and haphazard instructions. One year is not enough even to prepare students to the level of mental discipline and ctitical thinking required for understanding of basics of EBM, especially counting for the initial level of the students. And the first thing these students hear the first day they hit the floor:

- all right, newbies, now listen: this is not your school. Forget everything you got from there and do as you're told from now on.

They are "encouraged" to ask questions but we all here know what does it mean in real life.

2 or 4 years programs try to make semblance of teaching "science". But while pressuring into students' heads gazillion of facts, they do not place them in context. Critical thinking is rarely required. Students learn that b-blockers slow heart down and even how they do it, but they are not able to answer a simple question: what will likely happen with blood pressure if patient on nonselective b-blocker gets a flu with high fever? They know everything they supposed to know about inflammation and b-blockers, they just cannot make connections.

And they hear the ****ed phrase above the day they hit the floor at the first time.

Then there comes the first job and those jokes about "what nursing school did not teach me, part 1". What those enormous books are all about? Research, evidence, critical thinking, analysis? Nope, they are about fineries of placing bedpans "the way we always do it", policies, schmolicies, lateral violence and finding ways to speak with nutty docs at the middle of the night. And, above it all - "safety", "advocacy" and "doing my job as a nurse". The totally wrong, incredibly mistaken concepts beaten into the medulla oblongata of every novice nurse.

A nurse tears the phone apart all night long while "taking care" of a healthy as a bull young patient who got a bad case of influenza A. Patient is tachycardic, tachypneic, feverish, has chest congestion, heartburn and nausea. Minimally elewated lactate and WBCs of 17 with 60% lympho. He wanna sleep and for that reason is kinda slow. At that, the nurse subsequently activated:

- code sepsis

- code stroke

- code ACS

She made over 20 calls overnight demanding this and that to be ordered "as per protocol". If she couldn't wheedle what she wanted from one doc after being explained why the test was not needed, she immediately went to badger someone else and then was sitting at the patient's neck squeezing out of him that "mandatory" urinalysis. The total cost of absolutely useless tests done in just 12 h was over $5000.

Next morning the patient was doing significantly worse after being dragged around the whole place the whole night long plus being dropped from the stretcher in CT scan.

I got the management onboard. The nurse literally did not understand what was her fault: it was for "safety" and "alertness", she was "just advocating for the patient" and "it was her job to alert providers and made appropriate suggestions because in SOAP "P" stays for "plan". The nurse was not new. I wish those $5000 would be taken from her salary to the last red cent.

After that, anybody is suprised that an a nurse who "believes" in utter antivaxx nonsense works in ICU, that MSN prepared nurse was looking on this forum about "some evidence" related to how exactly much doors of the restrooms must be left apart (there was such topic a couple of years ago) and that thinking, brainy, knowledge-thirst nurses run from bedside as fast as they can?

I do not know what to do with all that. Individual education works (for above case, I managed to explain the nurse why hat she did was wrong from B to Z, as A was kinda right thing to do (she noted symptoms, after all). It took 1.5 hours and $3.50 or Starbucks coffee. But I am one of the very few providers who does such things.

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Specializes in New Grad RN.

I’m curious what you think one flu shot per year is going to do to you, in terms of “harming” your body.

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