I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Stanford rape trial and sentence on all nurses. I'm opening up the discussion as I feel it pertains to us in many ways. One as people who may have been victims or know others who have been victims of sexual violence and two as nurses that have taken care of others in this situation, whether directly in ER or a patient suffering from PTSD with other health problems as well.
I applaud the survivor's bravery and her impact statement that has gone public. I hope this will comfort other survivors, but even more I hope this will discourage rape in general. Campus rapes are common and rapes at frats are in the news frequently. Once again a college athlete got off with just a slap on the wrist, although I don't think he counted on all the negative publicity this case has garnered.
What disturbs me the most is the letters of the parents to the judge. The father's don't punish him for 20 minutes of action. Then the mother's letter, who by the way is a nurse for gynecological surgeries and in the past as a pediatric nurse, who had not one iota of empathy for the victim. Her letter simply astonished me. I can't believe as a woman, as a nurse, as a mother of a daughter she had no empathy for the victim! This troubles me the most! I imagine in her years as a nurse she must have taken care of a rape victim and her total lack of empathy for the victim disturbs me greatly!
You are the one suggesting, repeatedly, that women who engage in those activities are inviting rape to some degree and may not be entirely blameless (or that sexual assault under those circumstances might not really be "rape") ... What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as they say.
I don't recall saying certain circumstances might not really be rape.
You've told me what you think I said, but I want to know from YOU do you think they deserve to be raped? Simple question. Just speak your truth. Or should I take your reply as a Yes, they deserve to be raped?
I seriously feel dirty reading everything you have to say because you honestly think you are a compassionate person - but you are really quite vile and judgmental.
I am sorry you feel dirty. I do think I'm compassionate and I am a better judge of my character than you are because you don't know me.
Are you being judgmental now toward me? Yes. Vile? No, I'll let that pass.
Why do YOU feel dirty because you think I don't realize that I am not compassionate?
What would convince you that I do have compassion?
We all make judgments all day long, every day. We choose, we judge what's best, life is filled with decisions.
Most men can control their reaction to a lovely woman who is dressed alluringly and don't take criminal action. Some men can't or choose not to control it or they have other thinking that is perhaps set off by seeing a beautiful woman who seems, perhaps, vulnerable. Why tempt, however unintentionally?
No one said you were a walking Media magazine or a piece of meat, but some men might be overpowered by their urges, so again, why play to their weakness? There are lots of sicko's in the World.
Maybe you can tell me what reasonable precautions against rape include, since intoxication isn't one and visually stimulating men isn't one.
When you say that you think that some men can't control it and some are overpowered by their urges, you are saying that it's outside of the man's control. You are saying that in some instances of rape the man simply couldn't help himself. That is complete and utter hogwash. The answer is always, in each and every single case, that they chose not to control it. They gave themselves permission to violate another human being.
If your theory was correct, than we would see many rapes in many public places with many independent witnesses present. The fact that rapists consistently choose more secluded places (hoping to avoid interruption, hoping to avoid capture) than the check-out line at the local grocery store or a public beach where hundreds of people have gathered tells me that they most certainly are in control of their actions and that it's a conscious, deliberate decision on their part. It's not a case of being overcome by having been "visually stimulated", leaving no other option than to rape.
Stop making excuses for rapists.
Some people jumped on me and accused me of caring more about the poor darlings in jail who get raped and not treated than about women who are raped. one commentor said they probably were asking to be raped.
Now I think that you're being disingenious. I think that you understand full well that the poster in question wasn't really saying that the men in jail deserve to be raped. It was evident that the poster was simply mirroring back your own words at you regarding female behavior, perhaps in an attempt to make you reflect on how your comments sound to us. You have repeatedly brought up women's dress, women's alcohol consumption and women's behavior vis-Ã -vis rape.
The reason why people think that you care more about male encarcerated rape victims than you do for female rape victims who might have been drinking, who might have been wearing revealing clothes, who might have been going off alone with a man, who might have had pre-marital sex and who might have acted flirtatious is simple.I can't believe that you can't see it. How can you be so utterly blind to your own biases? How is it possible?
When you describe the male rape victims you encountered in jail, I hear real emotion in your voice. When you comment on the female victim that this thread is about, all I hear from you is how much we don't know about what actually took place. Did she do this? Did she do that?
I would need to hear you express the same outrage that you've expressed for the plight of male rape victims and child rape victims, for all rape victims. Including the woman who went to a party and perhaps drank "too much". The woman who've had multiple extra-marital sexual relationships. The woman who shows of her body in figure-hugging outfits. Until I hear you voice the same level of emotion for all victims and condemnation for all rapists, I will continue to see you as someone who in some instances is a rape apologist.
I think that rape is always wrong, regardless of who the victim is. Regardless of the surrounding circumstances.
Thank you for your courage in speaking out. Maybe you can convey this message here and people will respect you because you are a Conqueror.
My heart goes out to any rape victim. And I do mean any. But no, I don't respect the standpoint that women can't both be considered equal to men and at the same time be considered victims of crime, when a crime has indeed taken place. A crime that was 100% not their fault. Thinking that a woman can't "have it both" is convoluted and flawed logic. As well as misogynistic.
I disagree with pretty much everything Kooky has said, and haven't had the emotional energy to reply to some of his posts. However, I also completely disagree with this post. It is disrespectful, immature and unnecessary. I'm not a religious person so I'm not personally offended by your post, but as adults we should be able to have a civilized discussion, not hurling insults at one another.
He's using his religion as a weapon against rape victims. I don't care how you perceive my post. No one talked about his religion until he brought it up and shoved it in these people face. Nothing he said was in the context of an adult. Save me with your bull.
I never attack Christianity I attack his extremist bible thumping ways. He and people like him are no different than other extremist groups. The fact that no one agrees with him on the thread and he hijacked a thread that wasn't even about him and made it the kooky show really is vile.
Say whatever you want. I will NOT respond back to this freak and anyone that apologies for what he's said. He's made rape and molest victims sad, stressed etc and the only thing you got out of my post is that I attacked his religion?
He's using his religion as a weapon against rape victims. I don't care hoe you perceive my post. No one talked about his religion until he brought it up and shoved it in these people face. Nothing he said was in the context of an adult. Save me with your bull.
I never attack Christianity I attack his extremist bible thumping ways. He and people like him are no different than other extremist groups. The fact that no one agrees with him on the thread and he hijacked a thread that wasn't even about him and mad it the kooky show really is vile.
Say whatever you want. I will NOT respond back to this freak and anyone that apologies for what he's said. He's made rape and molest victims sad, stressed etc and the only thing you got out of my post is that I attacked his religion?
I will start by saying: 1. I was raped as a teen and it pretty much destroyed my life for a few years 2. Rapists should get the book thrown at them. Women need to stop acting all empowered and equal in every way on one hand and then all helpless the big bad guy raped me on the other. Make up your mind. If I get drunk in some strange place and get raped the guy should go to jail and I should take an honest look at my behavior and how it endangered me. Don't play in traffic and then act all outraged and shocked when you get hit by a car. The lack of personal responsibility is ridiculous.
Don't act all equal then dare to admit women have been attacked???
No one is saying women should be stupid. No one is saying women shouldn't do things that cut down their risk of being assaulted. We are saying women don't cause rape. We are saying that when rape happens, it is the fault of the rapist. We are saying women shouldn't have to modify, limit, and shrink their entire lives because of constant fear of attack.
How many times do we have to say that modifying your own behavior doesn't stop rape? How many? All it does is shift who is the most vulnerable. There will ALWAYS be someone who is vulnerable and there will always be men who rape. Focusing on women's behavior instead of rapists' gives a free pass to predators and the culture that enables them and increases the blame directed toward women who weren't "good" victims.
Rape isn't getting hit by a car while you're in the street. It's getting hit by a car while you're on the sidewalk.
The one thing I dislike the most about rape culture. The huge push for us to make ourselves less of a target than the person next to us. When we are told that drinking is like playing in the streets, that dressing alluring makes you a target, and that some men cannot control themselves what I really hear is that rape is unavoidable. It's the zombie apocalypse, and all you have to do to survive is not be the slowest person.
I'm going to answer Kooky's question of me before this thread is closed.
The difference between my statement of taking precautions and yours is that I say only deviants rape while you say that men can be visually stimulated into raping.
Horny doesn't cause rape. Drunkedness doesn't cause rape. Sick deviancy for wanting to forcibly control, assault and/or penetrate another is what causes rape. You can't visually stimulate a non deviant into raping, victim conscious or not.
So yes, I taught my daughter about ways to reduce her risk of being vulnerable to men (or women) who are psychologically wired to cause harm. None of which is to tell her how to dress or how much to drink, or that she can entice someone to hurt her, only that there are sickos in the world who would abduct, rape, mutilate, sell her. So she has her keys out, parks close to an entrance, chooses places where there is a security guard if she is alone, pays attention, doesn't text while walking alone in a parking lot, don't park next to vans, doesn't develop online relationships etc.
Rape isn't avoidable, you cannot deter a would be rapist by how you dress or behave, you can only try not to be the vulnerable one who wanders too far from the safety of the herd. That can happen in a parking lot in an affluent neighborhood at a boutique grocery store mid day dressed and behaving like a nun if one lets their guard down when some sociopath happens to spy you.
Most men can control their reaction to a lovely woman who is dressed alluringly and don't take criminal action. Some men can't or choose not to control it or they have other thinking that is perhaps set off by seeing a beautiful woman who seems, perhaps, vulnerable. Why tempt, however unintentionally?
No one said you were a walking Media magazine or a piece of meat, but some men might be overpowered by their urges, so again, why play to their weakness? There are lots of sicko's in the world.
Kooky Korky, you cannot possibly be this obtuse. I can only conclude that you are being deliberately disingenuous. You have been told numerous times that rapists do not rape because they have been turned on by a "lovely, alluringly dressed woman." That is a load of crap. They do not rape because they cannot control the urges caused by being turned on by a woman.
They rape to exert power over another person. They rape to display anger at a woman or the world at large. They rape to cause pain. They do not rape because they are overwhelmed by the beauty and sexy clothes or presentation of a woman. STOP insisting that this is the case and if only women would tone down their beauty or "allure," rapes could be prevented. THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE.
I will start by saying: 1. I was raped as a teen and it pretty much destroyed my life for a few years 2. Rapists should get the book thrown at them. Women need to stop acting all empowered and equal in every way on one hand and then all helpless the big bad guy raped me on the other. Make up your mind. If I get drunk in some strange place and get raped the guy should go to jail and I should take an honest look at my behavior and how it endangered me. Don't play in traffic and then act all outraged and shocked when you get hit by a car. The lack of personal responsibility is ridiculous.
Getting caught up on this thread - I appreciate your post above.
There is no excuse for rape. But I do teach my kids about making responsible choices.
I see no reason why both cannot be taught.
Rape is wrong, bad, evil, and the perp should be punished.
Be careful about drinking to excess and putting yourself in harm's way.
I like the analogy about playing in traffic and then getting outraged and shocked when you get hit by a car.
Rape is a scary thing. Even people who aren't survivors know that it's a scary thing. I mentioned previously that it was especially female friends who would blame me for what happened. There was very much an attitude of "It can't happen to me, because I would never put myself at risk." It's really easy to comfort ourselves by saying that it would never happen to me, I wouldn't tease the guy until he couldn't stop himself, or I would never be alone with a guy, or I would never get that drunk. It allows us to feel safe in our fear. It's a super easy way out.
In many ways it reminds me of the current scandal at BYU, where women who would report their rapes would find themselves being investigated by the school for Honor Code violations. Victims talking about how the attackers would use "You were out after curfew and drinking" as a way to quiet victims. What the person was doing at the time of the rape does not matter near so much as the fact they were raped. Do not compound the issue by blaming the victim's circumstances at the time. They will do that themselves, there is no need to help them. It's up to us, as compassionate human beings to support them and say no one deserves to be raped, no matter what they did, no one deserves to be raped.
Kooky Korky, BSN, RN
5,216 Posts
I don't recall saying certain circumstances might not really be rape.
You've told me what you think I said, but I want to know from YOU do you think they deserve to be raped? Simple question. Just speak your truth. Or should I take your reply as a Yes, they deserve to be raped?