I am not sure if it is true or not, but I heard that RNs get a little extra pay when they work on a day where nursing students are present. If the charge RN assigned a student to an RN, then they get the extra pay.
I am talking about college nursing students not training a new employee.
It just came on top of my head because I have been assigned to lousy RNs during my clinical rotations and it feels like they should be more engaged with students
Not everyone likes to come in and have their routine interrupted. And we're not obligated to do so. Use of our facility and accessibility to our patients is a privilege and you're certainly not entitled to have your own personal bedside RN as a CI. Your CI should be ultimately responsible for either a) pairing you up with an RN willing to take on a student or b) being the source of your clinical instruction.
Emphasis is mine.
Very well said. I think most of the nurses here who are not impressed with this thread are coming from two places:
1)It's been stated more times than I can count that having a student actually makes MORE WORK for the RN. I actually think most students can comprehend that concept even if they hadn't taken the time to reflect on this before. The students who continue to pipe in here claiming that they actually are taking a burden off the RN after nurses have gone into detail explaining how and why the opposite is true are offensive. Where is the "Hmm, I never thought about it like that. I guess it makes sense that it's a lot easier to do something yourself than to stop and talk someone through it or explain it in detail." When these students reject even this simplest of lessons, it tells us that the student doesn't have an appreciation for what the nurse is doing for him, considers the nurse to be at HIS service, and lacks the understanding that he is in fact receiving a very generous professional courtesy.
2)Regardless of whether his assigned RN loves to teach, the major responsibility for teaching should nevertheless lie with the clinical instructor, who has a direct relationship with the school and the students. When those CIs throw the student into a unit and proceed to disappear, they are making a pretty strong negative impression on the nurses who are giving so generously of their time, particularly in light of the fact that nurse to patient ratios continue to climb in many areas. This is so disrespectful to the nurses and it's no wonder that many nurses dread having a student under these circumstances.
My clinical instructors always stressed the fact that we were on that floor due to the generosity of the facility and the staff. CIs were the liaison between us and the nurses and there was no question that we were to understand that these people were doing us a huge favor, NOT the other way around. While the CIs weren't at our elbows every second, they were darn sure on the floor and accessible at all times. What the heck is happening with these nursing schools now that apparently a number of CIs think it's okay to delegate the responsibility for which they are being paid onto other professionals who are NOT affiliated with their school in any way, and who are far more burdened with responsibility than the CIs and students? If this is a common occurrence, it's no wonder there is tension. It sounds like some schools may be assigning too many students to their CIs, or they aren't hiring instructors who understand what their role actually is.
Very well said. I think most of the nurses here who are not impressed with this thread are coming from two places:
1)It's been stated more times than I can count that having a student actually makes MORE WORK for the RN. I actually think most students can comprehend that concept even if they hadn't taken the time to reflect on this before. The students who continue to pipe in here claiming that they actually are taking a burden off the RN after nurses have gone into detail explaining how and why the opposite is true are offensive. Where is the "Hmm, I never thought about it like that. I guess it makes sense that it's a lot easier to do something yourself than to stop and talk someone through it or explain it in detail." When these students reject even this simplest of lessons, it tells us that the student doesn't have an appreciation for what the nurse is doing for him, considers the nurse to be at HIS service, and lacks the understanding that he is in fact receiving a very generous professional courtesy.
2)Regardless of whether his assigned RN loves to teach, the major responsibility for teaching should nevertheless lie with the clinical instructor, who has a direct relationship with the school and the students. When those CIs throw the student into a unit and proceed to disappear, they are making a pretty strong negative impression on the nurses who are giving so generously of their time, particularly in light of the fact that nurse to patient ratios continue to climb in many areas. This is so disrespectful to the nurses and it's no wonder that many nurses dread having a student under these circumstances.
My clinical instructors always stressed the fact that we were on that floor due to the generosity of the facility and the staff. CIs were the liaison between us and the nurses and there was no question that we were to understand that these people were doing us a huge favor, NOT the other way around. While the CIs weren't at our elbows every second, they were darn sure on the floor and accessible at all times. What the heck is happening with these nursing schools now that apparently a number of CIs think it's okay to delegate the responsibility for which they are being paid onto other professionals who are NOT affiliated with their school in any way, and who are far more burdened with responsibility than the CIs and students? If this is a common occurrence, it's no wonder there is tension. It sounds like some schools may be assigning too many students to their CIs, or they aren't hiring instructors who understand what their role actually is.
I agree. To the point you made in your second paragraph regarding CIs not having an understanding of their role, I think utilizing the bedside RN as sort of "adjunct CI" if you will comes from the inability of the college to adequately divide their clinical groups or "cohorts" (though I loathe the word) into manageable numbers for their CIs. In my clinical groups, it was typically 8-10 students to one CI. During Nursing 101, where we were in the NHs, and only allowed to take vital signs, perform head-to-toe assessments, and perform AM care, it wasn't a huge deal. Fast forward to MedSurg, advanced MedSurg, and other specialized subjects, having 1 CI to 10 students is not feasible, and thus they leave it to the bedside RN to supplement this education from the CI. And it isn't fair. The bedside RN should not, and is not, responsible for showing you the way YOUR institution wants a specific skill performed. Student nurses do not learn until AFTER they're licensed that not all situations are black or white. Grey areas exist. And your CI will not teach you that, or expect you to know that, while you're still a student.
After reading this, I am thankful I have had all positive experiences in my clinical assignments so far. Med/Surg, Palliative Care, Peds, OB/Gyn, Progressive Surgical ICU, and Cardiac Step Down Unit to date. The CI's are required to remain on floor during the entire clinical period (6:30 to 2:30) except for a lunch break of 30 minutes and do adhere to those guidelines. They are assigned 6 students, no more. The nurses are engaged with students and look for any teachable moment it seems. There are five schools I believe at my clinical site that have students at this hospital (RN, LPN, CNA) on different days of the week. I will say this, different schools, different rules. I can only speak for mine but I do know that we have a broader scope of skills we are allowed to perform than any of the other schools per school policy. Don't know if that plays into my experience or not. Anyway, so far, so good.
That is exactly what happened the first time I shadowed a nurse. She was AMAZING and confident and fun! My partner and I just basically chased her everywhere she went and she would talk through the whole process. You can tell she loves her job and was very sweet. At the same time, my partner and I were willing to work with her as much as we could and knew our limits.
Specializes in Med-Surg, OB, ICU, Public Health Nursing.
We are paid extra to preceptor an RN. More importantly, we are ASKED if we would like to precept. We can work on a plan, goals, pick appropriate assignments etc.
However, I got a call from one of the nicest, most willing to teach RNs in a case management program. She finally spoke up because when she walked in the door, she never knew if she would have an RN student, LVN student, psychology student, medical student. She had no advance notice and the joy of teaching was tiring her out. In addition, there was no clinical instructor present for any of the students. Perhaps the nursing student might find my colleague "mean" but I know that was not true. She was tired of being a doormat and being disrespected by our management who did not even have the courtesty to notify her of students.
Out of curiosity how long have you been a nurse and who taught you when you went to school?
To whom are you speaking? If you'd like to reply to a specific post, you can use the "Quote" button in the lower right corner. However, it seems as if some mobile devices don't allow you to quote.
If you're asking in general, then I'll answer. I've been a nurse for 17 years. I was always taught by my instructor. As has been discussed, I was never assigned to an RN, I was assigned to the patient. Anything that needed to be observed, such as med passes or procedures, was supervised by my Clinical Instructor, who never left the floor. That's what my instructors were being paid to do. Never once did I expect the RN to teach me anything - he/she was always way too busy.
As far as teaching / mentoring not being a part of your job, please remember provision 7 of the ANA Nursing code of Ethics. As a nurse, it is our duty to be in mentorship roles, disseminate information, and train others in order to advance the profession.
oh, well, if the ANA says we should..... (Sarcasm)
Nobody here is saying they don't like being assigned nursing students because they're troglodytes who hate education or because they're lazy or anti-social, or whatever. Floor nurses hate it because they don't have time for the work they already have.
Its not that complicated. Having to help a student takes time away from patient care, and is extra work that the nurse is not compensated for.
Don't get me wrong, clinicals are important and nursing students need to learn from experienced, licensed nurses. But believing students ease the workload is naive.
And invoking the ANA to remind us of our "ethical duty" is probably counter-productive to your intent. Many here regard the ANA as an out-of-touch organization not to be taken seriously.
Nursing students, we love that you have chosen nursing and look forward to working with you one day. I went to school at an old fashioned, excellent hospital program. I was taught to watch, never say a word, complete tasks offered to me, then go home and study my butt off. They said "enjoy being a student" and soon I realized why. As a student, I always got to leave for lunch, and I got to leave at 1500 or 2300 or whatever, have a quick huddle with my cohort and go home. As a student this is appropriate, you need to pass your tests so you can finish school.
Once you are out of school it is a different ballgame. You may think your nurse is lousy; she might be tired because someone called out and now she has 5 busy floor patients. Or there is a mandatory staff meeting at 8AM, now we are behind the rest of the morning. Or a family member complained and we were yanked into a session between them and our unit manager. You have no idea. And you don't have to right now, that's ok, you're students. But the time you spend with us is only the tip of the iceberg. Please don't take it personally. It also might not be anything about you. If I have patient in labor who after hours of pain might have to do a C-section, it's not the time to explain to her I have a student with me that day. Or if I have a comfort care patient on a geri floor and the family is distressed, also not a good assignment for a student. It just isn't. Sometimes we have to protect the trust we have built with our patients. What you may see as a less than perfect assignment is us doing the right thing by our patients. You may think it isn't exciting enough. Trust me, once you have been on the floor or in the unit and are working on your own, you will see what we mean. We are so happy you are going to join us in the workforce. Be patient, nurslings, and get your "sea legs." No one means for you to feel bored or brushed off. We will give you the best experience that we can, but it isn't a guarantee. Be flexible, compassionate, and have good manners. This serves you well no matter what type of nursing you will end up doing.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
Wow...there is so much anger on this thread.
During my first job in retail clothing, I learned a valuable lesson. "Everyone has bad days, drama, etc. Life happens...but, when you walk through those doors" and the manager pointed at the store entrance, "the bad day, the attitude, all that negative stuff stays outside." Fast forward 20 years, it seems like that's a lesson that anyone involved in a position that works with clients and colleagues should still aim to master.
Here are my thoughts:
OP, I appreciate your point about having had nurses that may not have been engaging or may have been rude. Unfortunately, the tone felt like the "blame game" and the result was a textbook response of people defending themselves because they feel as if they are under attack. Communication is key to any enterprise succeeding. Apparently, that "Professional Roles as a Nurse" course did have some value.
Now, the interesting thing about perpetrators of domestic violence is that they feel that they were in the right because their spouse was so "stupid" or "should have known better" than to trigger the angry reaction. It isn't someone else's responsibility to "not trigger" you, it is your responsibility to control your emotions and leave the negative stuff at the door. I see nurses name calling, and displaying other behaviors that do qualify as "nursing incivility." The "sink or swim" attitude that follows "that's how I learned to be a nurse," or "you are a special snowflake because you expect courtesy" does not produce a therapeutic milieu. As nurses, it is our job to refrain from incivility.
Nurses, please remember your ANA Nursing code of Ethics. Provision 1.5 calls for the respectful treatment of your colleagues and others.
The principle of respect for persons extends to all individuals with whom the nurse interacts. The nurse maintains compassionate and caring relationships with colleagues and others with a commitment to the fair treatment of individuals, to integrity-preserving compromise, and to resolving conflict. Nurses function in many roles, including direct care provider, administrator, educator, researcher, and consultant. In each of these roles, the nurse treats colleagues, employees, assistants, and students with respect and compassion. This standard of conduct precludes any and all prejudicial actions, any form of harassment or threatening behavior, or disregard for the effect of one's actions on others. The nurse values the distinctive contribution of individuals or groups, and collaborates to meet the shared goal of providing quality health services.
As far as teaching / mentoring not being a part of your job, please remember provision 7 of the ANA Nursing code of Ethics. As a nurse, it is our duty to be in mentorship roles, disseminate information, and train others in order to advance the profession.
Finally, I will reference a great post that some of you may have already seen. I think that the anger, preconceptions, and attitudes in this thread highlights the points of the post.
WOW! So much self righteousness in some of the responses in this thread!
I don't believe anyone here argued that incivility is a right. What we HAVE argued is that patients come first, and if the nurse cannot conceal a bad mood from the student, the student ought not to conclude it has anything to do with them. It might just be close family members dying, too many caregiving responsibilities at home, back pain, cancer treatment or something else that has absolutely nothing to do with the students.
Most of us manage to conceal our bad moods from the patients, but when a student is following you everywhere (even, sometimes, to the bathroom) it is difficult to conceal the bad mood from them. And while a bad mood is not a right, by any means, it does happen in the real world.
oh, well, if the ANA says we should..... (Sarcasm)
Nobody here is saying they don't like being assigned nursing students because they're troglodytes who hate education or because they're lazy or anti-social, or whatever. Floor nurses hate it because they don't have time for the work they already have.
Its not that complicated. Having to help a student takes time away from patient care, and is extra work that the nurse is not compensated for.
Don't get me wrong, clinicals are important and nursing students need to learn from experienced, licensed nurses. But believing students ease the workload is naive.
And invoking the ANA to remind us of our "ethical duty" is probably counter-productive to your intent. Many here regard the ANA as an out-of-touch, ivory tower organization, at best.
"Sarcasm"
"It's not that complicated."
"Naive"
"Melodramatic and silly"
The above comments reinforce the negative attitudes that are pervasive in the profession and that we should want to move away from embodying.
I love reading the posts on AN because they provide insight into the process of other nurses. Sadly, it also includes abusive language and behavior that is indicative of nursing incivility. The incivility is then perpetuated with "mob mentality" and the "yeah! that's how I learned!" It does nothing to push the profession forward.
Personally, I don't think ethics for a profession are silly or melodramatic. I think that a profession whose tenets embody caring, like nursing, needs a moral compass like the ANA code of Ethics. The standards are high and hard to reach but it doesn't mean that we should stop trying.
Horseshoe, BSN, RN
5,879 Posts
Emphasis is mine.
Very well said. I think most of the nurses here who are not impressed with this thread are coming from two places:
1)It's been stated more times than I can count that having a student actually makes MORE WORK for the RN. I actually think most students can comprehend that concept even if they hadn't taken the time to reflect on this before. The students who continue to pipe in here claiming that they actually are taking a burden off the RN after nurses have gone into detail explaining how and why the opposite is true are offensive. Where is the "Hmm, I never thought about it like that. I guess it makes sense that it's a lot easier to do something yourself than to stop and talk someone through it or explain it in detail." When these students reject even this simplest of lessons, it tells us that the student doesn't have an appreciation for what the nurse is doing for him, considers the nurse to be at HIS service, and lacks the understanding that he is in fact receiving a very generous professional courtesy.
2)Regardless of whether his assigned RN loves to teach, the major responsibility for teaching should nevertheless lie with the clinical instructor, who has a direct relationship with the school and the students. When those CIs throw the student into a unit and proceed to disappear, they are making a pretty strong negative impression on the nurses who are giving so generously of their time, particularly in light of the fact that nurse to patient ratios continue to climb in many areas. This is so disrespectful to the nurses and it's no wonder that many nurses dread having a student under these circumstances.
My clinical instructors always stressed the fact that we were on that floor due to the generosity of the facility and the staff. CIs were the liaison between us and the nurses and there was no question that we were to understand that these people were doing us a huge favor, NOT the other way around. While the CIs weren't at our elbows every second, they were darn sure on the floor and accessible at all times. What the heck is happening with these nursing schools now that apparently a number of CIs think it's okay to delegate the responsibility for which they are being paid onto other professionals who are NOT affiliated with their school in any way, and who are far more burdened with responsibility than the CIs and students? If this is a common occurrence, it's no wonder there is tension. It sounds like some schools may be assigning too many students to their CIs, or they aren't hiring instructors who understand what their role actually is.