Vaccination Mandating

DesiDani · Dec 15, 2021

The mandate on hcw is on hold. So now what? My hospital put a "we encourage you to still get vaccinated" disclaimer on the memo. I'm for more encouraging and educating.

Guest219794 · Dec 15, 2021

11 hours ago, PMFB-RN said:

Why is a vaccine refuser more entitled to a bed than a car crash victim?

I'll bite.

Currently we are, for the most part, using our traditional approach, in which the sickest get the most resources. This works when there are sufficient resources. Even when this system works, it is pretty marginal. The amount of time and effort that goes into an ICU patient with no chance of a meaningful recovery has always seemed like a poor use of resources that could be put into improving outcomes for patients who will be discharge to someplace other than the morgue.

Many places are moving to crisis standards of care, which are very similar to MCI triage. On a normal day, the guy with no heartbeat is the priority. In an MCI. that pt is left to die to better use limited resources.

Prioritizing based on vaccination status is a whole different ball game. I think it's worth discussing, but would represent a huge paradigm shift. I actually don't have a problem looking at this issue. And, while I think there are problems comparing vaccinated with smokers, I would be fine with taking a different approach with repeat hospitalizations of COPDers. If they are not actively involved in smoking cessation of some kind, I would have no problem denying a bed on their xth visit, and instead providing hospice type care with unlimited smokes and a PCA.

The reality is that most of us, on a personal level, have no problem with a values based prioritization. But our system is not set up for it. If I came up on a bombing scene with a 4 year old with her hand blown off, but no life threatening bleed, and the bomber has an arterial bleed in the thigh, I am prioritizing the 4 year old. If they come into my ER, I am obligated to care for the bomber. (Maybe pull the curtain and start compressions to increase circulation?)

Point being, values based prioritization would be huge to change our system, and at a certain point, this may get bad enough to do it.

One of the things that helps me provide good care to the unvaccinated despite my frustration and resentment is to look at them as victims rather than perpetrators. Like millions of others, they fell for a false narrative. Most of those pushing the narrative clearly don't believe it themselves, but are willing to let the gullible die for financial or political gain.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 15, 2021

6 minutes ago, DesiDani said:

The mandate on hcw is on hold. So now what? My hospital put a "we encourage you to still get vaccinated" disclaimer on the memo. I'm for more encouraging and educating.

What do you mean "now what"?

We allow politicians to interfere with public health mandates so now we watch to see what happens as new variations of a novel virus spreads in our rather large group of volunteer replication hosts.

I had a texted conversation with one of my siblings in northern Indiana over the weekend. His spouse is nearly a year into struggle with Guillain Barre after covid illness. They tried to get her treated with unapproved meds at one point which had the unintended consequences of getting her transferred from facility to facility for the mystery treatment that never actually happened. Now her 80 year old mother is suffering from covid related clots and strokes.

Interestingly, my sibling told me earlier this year that he was vaccinated but he told me this weekend that he hasn't vaccinated yet because he had covid already. I guess he couldn't remember which story he had shared in the early Spring. He mentioned how the case rates and hospitalizations in his area are driven by vaccinated people at this point because the vaccination rates in that Michiana region are pretty good. I shared some information with him that indicated that his beliefs about covid in his region are incorrect. He immediately accused me of fear mongering and said he wasn't afraid of covid.

Our texting was completed shortly after that. These unvaccinated people are filled up to bursting with nonsense about covid and vaccination. My sibling is in deep denial about his own loved one's covid suffering while he's in the middle of it.

Guest219794 · Dec 15, 2021

20 minutes ago, DesiDani said:

The mandate on hcw is on hold. So now what? My hospital put a "we encourage you to still get vaccinated" disclaimer on the memo. I'm for more encouraging and educating.

Now what? Now is when you, as a nurse, work even harder to educate people to get them vaccinated.

allnurses Guide · Dec 15, 2021

2 hours ago, GrumpyRN said:

Make it a criminal offence for news purveyors to spout lies, half truths and untruths. If they say something they must back it up with verifiable facts.

Best comment I've seen so far. The problem is that most people are not getting information from actual news sorces (Even biased ones) they are listening to so called "Influencers" who are hiding behind "Freedom of the press" I had a discussion with one such person who in real life is a house wife and mother who has no education past high school. Nothing wrong with that. She's a nice person, keeps a clean house , children and hubby seem happy but she is adamantly opposed to vaccines of any kind and has gone on the internet to spread her influence. I had no idea that she was doing this until she asked me to look at her site and comment. The only thing I could say was "How do you sleep at night?"

I just had my Moderna booster last week and as expected it layed me out for the better part of the day - but a day's worth of discomfort so much better than being hospitalized.

Hppy

subee, MSN, CRNA · Dec 15, 2021

14 hours ago, RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN said:

I think posting being replied to referred to staffing issues being fixed, not the fact that COVID is contagious. To that end, the number of DKA, COPD, CHF, etc., in the non-compliant patient category certainly DO clog up the system and are part of the problem with staffing. In my particular area, it certainly is not COVID + straining us. Returning visits by the same frequent flyers needing emergent care are the ones causing 10, 14, and 18 hour waits to be seen in the ED and then 20-40 hour waits for their admission beds. Why, they want to smoke when they have COPD. They choose to miss dialysis because their back hurts. You name the B.S. excuse, they provide it. Burn patients needing ED/ICU beds because they choose to smoke with oxygen on. In fact, this year, we actually had a patient do that TWICE. So, if we want to start limiting care due to shortages of staff, I say add these who don't follow medical guidance as well. Opens plenty of beds for trauma, MI, stroke, etc. Then we can teach the next wave of patients who will be none compliant with meds and life style changes. And the wheel continues to turn. Just my two cents, but I didn't sign up to take only the patients who followed all the rules and guidance the doctors gave them.

I don't think your comparison is valid because there are no easy fixes to people who eat too much, eat the wrong foods, refuse exercise, etc. These all involve long-term life style changes vs. 3 shot cheap, effective vaccination shots. Our county health department is now starting to created a separate stat figure for Covid patients who are dying at home. The hospital ran out of vents and the state sent 20 more but we have no staff to care for 20 more vents. If the hospital doesn't do a stiff triage, mother nature will anyway and, at this point, I would rather see a bed go to an MI than an unvaccinated patient. That's why we even have a triage system anyway. We are working under battlefield conditions and some people have to be sacrificed for the ones who can survive. That's where more and more hospitals will be with omicron among the unvaxxed. The culling will proceed and we now have to think even smarter.

Jedrnurse, BSN, RN · Dec 15, 2021

3 hours ago, hherrn said:

Now what? Now is when you, as a nurse, work even harder to educate people to get them vaccinated.

Unfortunately, a large segment of the population has developed herd immunity protecting them from facts, common sense, and logic.

3 hours ago, hppygr8ful said:

The only thing I could say was "How do you sleep at night?"

What was the response?

Lucydog14 · Dec 15, 2021

5 hours ago, hherrn said:

Now what? Now is when you, as a nurse, work even harder to educate people to get them vaccinated.

Yeah because its our fault people are gullible idiots. Have actually talked to an anti vaxxer?

Hoosier_RN, MSN · Dec 15, 2021

8 hours ago, PMFB-RN said:

We are choosing to deny the MVA victim care and choosing to care for the unvaxxed. In my opinion we should be making different choices.

So you think that you should pull an unvaxxed person from a bed, kick them out, and give to an MVA victim? How do you know that the MVA victim didn't cause or contribute to their situation?

What about persons who have a medical condition that has their team of Drs recommending against vax? Would they be kicked out too?

What group would you pick and choose care for next?

DesiDani · Dec 15, 2021

8 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

My sibling is in deep denial about his own loved one's covid suffering while he's in the middle of it.

Looks like your approach isn't working for your family. You're an effective poster boy for the vaccine in your own head.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Dec 15, 2021

31 minutes ago, Hoosier_RN said:

So you think that you should pull an unvaxxed person from a bed, kick them out, and give to an MVA victim? How do you know that the MVA victim didn't cause or contribute to their situation?

What about persons who have a medical condition that has their team of Drs recommending against vax? Would they be kicked out too?

What group would you pick and choose care for next?

Hysterical nonsense. No one suggested what you have written. Maybe you don't understand that we Vax to protect vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated . No one is suggesting that the very few people who have a medical reason to avoid a Vax should be forced to take it. Just stop it with your blathering.

DesiDani · Dec 15, 2021

8 hours ago, hherrn said:

When you say mandates aren't effective, what do you mean? Do you have access to data unavailable to public health experts? If so, you should release it immediately. They must be working with outdated data. A lot of these "experts" don't even use some of the valuable information readily available on facebook.

As far as effective marketing? What would you like to have seen done? Unfortunately, those advocating for public health are bound by ethical constraints not shared by the other side. The massive marketing campaign to reduce vaccination utilized the worst fear mongering. Believe it or not, there are actual nurses who have bought into this marketing. As a nure, I am embarrassed.

FOX could probably get the marketing award for it's extremely effective marketing of the catastrophe we are dealing with. While there are others in the game, they have made massive contributions to vaccination prevention effort. What makes them so special here is that they clearly know the product they are selling is as much of a scam as the extended warranties offered by robo callers. You think the guy behind that bought an extended warranty based on a robo-call?

Same for FOX. While their vaccinated sales reps, Shaw, Laura, Tucker are out pushing the scam, the company itself has a more stringent policy than the one advocated by Biden. They profit enormously from the fear and disinformation they sow, but have a business to run, and refuse to allow their own employees follow the garbage they are imposing on their gullible suckers. Unfortunately, their marketing strategy, while extremely effective, is unethical, and public health experts are bound by principles ,not profit.

(Getting to the bottom)

Oh okay. This is a long rant about Fox News.