Vaccination Mandating

[Ariemay82]

I'm in NY. Wonder how other NURSES are feeling about mandatory COVID vaccination?

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

4 hours ago, Matricies said:

I think mandates are a nice idea in theory and they could have been good in implementation but unfortunately at this point in the pandemic, all thats going to happen is a massive shortage of workers due to people not taking the vaccine. It's been shown that trying to force people to take it, isn't working to well and refuting incorrect information on vaccines and covid isn't even as effective. There has to be a fundamental change on how we combat misinformation and tend to peoples concerns with covid and vaccines or we're probably not going to get anywhere with this.

That being said, I am vaccinated and want people to get vaccinated. Way too many people died before the vaccine was released and way to many people die not getting it. Way too many, "I wish I had gotten the vaccine" news reports. There is a lot of emotion going on with this pandemic and it really is getting in the way of us having an effective response to the situation not as individuals but as a community and society. Until we deal with that part of the pandemic, we're probably not going to have effective response any time soon.

I have not read a single argument to buttress what you posted.  Vaccine mandates have been successful  and multiply cited by multiple news agencies.  Forbes:  Covid-19 Vaccine Mandates Are Working—Here’s The Proof (forbes.com).  Eventually enough new nurses will roll out of the sausage factories that hospitals will have enough candidates to enforce Covid vaccine mandates and the non-vaxxers can graduate onto another phase of their lives.  But, from what I have read, hospitals have generally had spetacular results getting their staffs vaxxed with the mandates.  Do you have any evidence of the contrary?

[Matricies, BSN]

21 minutes ago, subee said:

I have not read a single argument to buttress what you posted.  Vaccine mandates have been successful  and multiply cited by multiple news agencies.  Forbes:  Covid-19 Vaccine Mandates Are Working—Here’s The Proof (forbes.com).  Eventually enough new nurses will roll out of the sausage factories that hospitals will have enough candidates to enforce Covid vaccine mandates and the non-vaxxers can graduate onto another phase of their lives.  But, from what I have read, hospitals have generally had spetacular results getting their staffs vaxxed with the mandates.  Do you have any evidence of the contrary?

After spending some time looking through Ebsco articles on Cinahl, I might have been mistaken. It looks like for the most part the vaccine mandate is actually working. The only articles I even found mentioning what I talked about mostly were public health things that also talked about how the mandate works because most people are "sit and wait" people rather the hard anti-vaccination individuals.  I apologize about that.

I know I read an article about this topic of people not liking mandates and the violation of their choice in the matter and rather having better ways to combat misinformation and attending to peoples concerns about the vaccine but I can't seem to find the article anymore or I'm not looking properly. I'm problely also inferring from previous articles I've read about things like forcing flu vaccinations or vaccinations in general from an old ethics article.

 

[chare]

Quote

Some of the largest U.S. hospital systems have dropped Covid-19 vaccine mandates for staff after a federal judge temporarily halted a Biden administration mandate that healthcare workers get the shots.

Hospital operators including HCA Healthcare Inc. and Tenet Healthcare Corp. as well as nonprofits AdventHealth and the Cleveland Clinic are dropping the mandates. Labor costs in the industry have soared, and hospitals struggled to retain enough nurses, technicians and even janitors to handle higher hospitalizations in recent months as the Delta variant raged. Vaccine mandates have been a factor constraining the supply of healthcare workers, according to hospital executives, public-health authorities and nursing groups.

[...]

Some Hospitals Drop Covid-19 Vaccine Mandates to Ease Labor Shortages

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

34 minutes ago, chare said:

Some Hospitals Drop Covid-19 Vaccine Mandates to Ease Labor Shortages

Yepl m We are scraping the bottom of the barrel now.  The nurses at our local hospital are 98% vaccinated.  The only problem is the left the employment of the hospital and now are working for agencies so the hospital has to pay a lot more for the same employee.  So the majority of the vaccinated are the non-professional staff.  We already had a labor shortage before Covid.  The government had to give up on this one because we have more morons than anticipated.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

A VERY easy way to fix all of our staffing issues:

No vax = no vent. 

[PMFB-RN, RN]

On 11/28/2021 at 8:37 AM, Hoosier_RN said:

Okay, so then anyone who is diabetic who goes into DKA shouldn't go to the hospital because of their diet, smoker who has exacerbation of COPD shouldn't, or dialysis patient who consistently has high fluid intake should be refused care? I realize you're talking about vaccines and staff doing their part. But when we start refusing care because of "not doing the right thing" leads to illness, it becomes a very slippery slope. That slope could lead to the death of you or a loved one, and that will eventually hit home.

There are cases of persons being advised by more than 1 MD to not get the vaccine, but use extra caution when around others. Should they be denied service as well, if they become ill? How do you track as they come in to the ER? Not everyone's file is immediately available.

We also know that the vaccinated can both carry and contract the virus, the CDC and WHO both acknowledge this fact, so the vaccine is not the total answer to the problem. Refusing care to those we don't deem worthy isn't an answer either, as today it's covid, tomorrow it could be "_______" fill in the blank with any disease...

 

The DKA and COPD patient don't put others at risk. They are the moral equivalent of seat belt refusers in that their choices only put themselves at risk and they bear most of the cost themselves. 

    The unvaxxed are the moral equivalent of  drunk drivers in that their behavior choices put everyone else at risk.

[Hoosier_RN, MSN]

33 minutes ago, PMFB-RN said:

The DKA and COPD patient don't put others at risk. They are the moral equivalent of seat belt refusers in that their choices only put themselves at risk and they bear most of the cost themselves. 

    The unvaxxed are the moral equivalent of  drunk drivers in that their behavior choices put everyone else at risk.

Again, I said I realize that comparisons don't line up, BUT refusals to care for certain patients today could easily become another patient group tomorrow, depending on the whims of govt and society. To me, it's just one stepping stone away

[JKL33]

3 hours ago, PMFB-RN said:

A VERY easy way to fix all of our staffing issues:

No vax = no vent. 

I get your perspective and understand your frustration with the unvaccinated (which I share) but I'm not a subscriber to the idea that covid is or ever has been the core reason that so many people have told acute care and other abusive workplaces to suck lemons. The camel's back was already weighed down before the covid straw.

[RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

20 hours ago, PMFB-RN said:

The DKA and COPD patient don't put others at risk. They are the moral equivalent of seat belt refusers in that their choices only put themselves at risk and they bear most of the cost themselves. 

    The unvaxxed are the moral equivalent of  drunk drivers in that their behavior choices put everyone else at risk.

I think posting being replied to referred to staffing issues being fixed, not the fact that COVID is contagious. To that end, the number of DKA, COPD, CHF, etc., in the non-compliant patient category certainly DO clog up the system and are part of the problem with staffing. In my particular area, it certainly is not COVID + straining us. Returning visits by the same frequent flyers needing emergent care are the ones causing 10, 14, and 18 hour waits to be seen in the ED and then 20-40 hour waits for their admission beds. Why, they want to smoke when they have COPD. They choose to miss dialysis because their back hurts. You name the B.S. excuse, they provide it. Burn patients needing ED/ICU beds because they choose to smoke with oxygen on. In fact, this year, we actually had a patient do that TWICE. So, if we want to start limiting care due to shortages of staff, I say add these who don't follow medical guidance as well. Opens plenty of beds for trauma, MI, stroke, etc. Then we can teach the next wave of patients who will be none compliant with meds and life style changes. And the wheel continues to turn. Just my two cents, but I didn't sign up to take only the patients who followed all the rules and guidance the doctors gave them.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

22 hours ago, Hoosier_RN said:

Again, I said I realize that comparisons don't line up, BUT refusals to care for certain patients today could easily become another patient group tomorrow, depending on the whims of govt and society. To me, it's just one stepping stone away

Thing is, we are already making these choices. We (my hospital) have already turned away patient needing ICU beds because we don't have space thanks to the unvaxxed choosing to clog up our ICU. 

    Why is a vaccine refuser more entitled to a bed than a car crash victim? I don't know but we have already made this choice and, at least here, the unvaxxed are getting the bed and the car crash victim is having to be moved out of state (in a few cases).

    I'm not proposing to do anything we aren't already doing, that being deciding who is and isn't going to get access to a scarce resource. I'm just proposing we rethink our priorities. 

   I would never suggest we refuse to care for anyone we have the ability to care for. Why are the unvaxxed more worthy of life sustaining medical care than everyone else?

[PMFB-RN, RN]

19 hours ago, JKL33 said:

I get your perspective and understand your frustration with the unvaccinated (which I share) but I'm not a subscriber to the idea that covid is or ever has been the core reason that so many people have told acute care and other abusive workplaces to suck lemons. The camel's back was already weighed down before the covid straw.

I don't work at an abusive workplace. I spent 3 years searching for the best possible place to practice as a critical care RN and moved my family across the country to work HERE because we have a solid union, fair pay, decent benefits, safe working conditions and respectful management. At least until the pandemic.

    Unvaxxed COVID patient are responsible for crushing the camel HERE. 

[JKL33]

7 minutes ago, PMFB-RN said:

I don't work at an abusive workplace. I spent 3 years searching for the best possible place to practice as a critical care RN and moved my family across the country to work HERE because we have a solid union, fair pay, decent benefits, safe working conditions and respectful management. At least until the pandemic.

Excellent. I'm glad to hear that. Sounds like you have made an assessment of the situation in your area and I will stand by my original comment as well.

Take care.