Vaccination Mandating

[Ariemay82]

I'm in NY. Wonder how other NURSES are feeling about mandatory COVID vaccination?

[toomuchbaloney]

 

[Hoosier_RN, MSN]

5 hours ago, nursekatie90 said:

I personally think we should not allow unvaccinated into hospitals. I'm doing my part by getting vaccinated, you can get access to hospitals when you do your part. I didn't sign up to be a plague sponge. The risk you think you have for mild myocarditis is nothing compared to the horrors I've seen the past two years.

Okay, so then anyone who is diabetic who goes into DKA shouldn't go to the hospital because of their diet, smoker who has exacerbation of COPD shouldn't, or dialysis patient who consistently has high fluid intake should be refused care? I realize you're talking about vaccines and staff doing their part. But when we start refusing care because of "not doing the right thing" leads to illness, it becomes a very slippery slope. That slope could lead to the death of you or a loved one, and that will eventually hit home.

There are cases of persons being advised by more than 1 MD to not get the vaccine, but use extra caution when around others. Should they be denied service as well, if they become ill? How do you track as they come in to the ER? Not everyone's file is immediately available.

We also know that the vaccinated can both carry and contract the virus, the CDC and WHO both acknowledge this fact, so the vaccine is not the total answer to the problem. Refusing care to those we don't deem worthy isn't an answer either, as today it's covid, tomorrow it could be "_______" fill in the blank with any disease...

 

[RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

43 minutes ago, Hoosier_RN said:

Okay, so then anyone who is diabetic who goes into DKA shouldn't go to the hospital because of their diet, smoker who has exacerbation of COPD shouldn't, or dialysis patient who consistently has high fluid intake should be refused care? I realize you're talking about vaccines and staff doing their part. But when we start refusing care because of "not doing the right thing" leads to illness, it becomes a very slippery slope. That slope could lead to the death of you or a loved one, and that will eventually hit home.

There are cases of persons being advised by more than 1 MD to not get the vaccine, but use extra caution when around others. Should they be denied service as well, if they become ill? How do you track as they come in to the ER? Not everyone's file is immediately available.

We also know that the vaccinated can both carry and contract the virus, the CDC and WHO both acknowledge this fact, so the vaccine is not the total answer to the problem. Refusing care to those we don't deem worthy isn't an answer either, as today it's covid, tomorrow it could be "_______" fill in the blank with any disease...

 

Hoosier, agree with you all the way. I'll take the unvaxxed COVID patients if they take all the non-compliant CHF/COPD/Dialysis, etc. patients. I'll have the smaller number of patients on a consistent day in and day out basis. As an actual example of the latter category, I have had the same dialysis patient in 3 or 4x in one month after missing dialysis and then needing emergent care. When asked why the patient missed treatment the answers were varied. Didn't feel good so didn't go. Back pain so didn't go. Leg hurt so didn't go. So, rather than obtain REQUIRED and NECESSARY treatment for the disease, the patient CHOOSE to not receive it. Then became sick and required 911 assistance and EMS transport. The patient then took up an ED room for several hours, required emergent dialyses in the ED taking a Dialysis RN away from their primary job,  and then MICU bed for a few days. How is that any different then the non-vaxxed COVID patient getting sick and then requiring emergent care? Had the dialysis patient went to their schedule dialysis, there would have been no ED visit and no MICU stay. 

In the ED where I work (Level 1 Trauma Center) the majority of vaxxed and  unvaxxed COIVD patients are treated and released from the ED. Of course, those with comorbidities have a greater chance of getting very sick and being hospitalized. Bottom line. Better to be vaxxed and reduce the risk of hospitalization. But also, realize people are people, and do what they want. As nurses we get to deal with it. We can vent and complain to each other, but we don't get to pick and choose our patients, unless of course we decide to specialize and even then we cannot reject patients, just work in an area we prefer, e.g. dermatology, surgery etc. Just my two cents.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

13 hours ago, chare said:

Rethinking Herd Immunity and the Covid-19 Response End Game

Is this the article you're referring to?

Yes, and this is the most important paragraph       Third, while our vaccines against COVID-19 are very effective and dramatically reduce the risk of infection, they do not reduce that risk to zero. People who have gotten vaccinated can still become infected (so-called breakthrough infections), and some people who have had COVID-19 can get it again. This means that we would need an even higher level of vaccination against COVID-19 to achieve herd immunity. 

[chare]

1 minute ago, subee said:

Yes, and this is the most important paragraph       Third, while our vaccines against COVID-19 are very effective and dramatically reduce the risk of infection, they do not reduce that risk to zero. People who have gotten vaccinated can still become infected (so-called breakthrough infections), and some people who have had COVID-19 can get it again. This means that we would need an even higher level of vaccination against COVID-19 to achieve herd immunity. 

What are you basing your apparent assumption that I don't understand any of this on?

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

2 hours ago, Hoosier_RN said:

Okay, so then anyone who is diabetic who goes into DKA shouldn't go to the hospital because of their diet, smoker who has exacerbation of COPD shouldn't, or dialysis patient who consistently has high fluid intake should be refused care? I realize you're talking about vaccines and staff doing their part. But when we start refusing care because of "not doing the right thing" leads to illness, it becomes a very slippery slope. That slope could lead to the death of you or a loved one, and that will eventually hit home.

There are cases of persons being advised by more than 1 MD to not get the vaccine, but use extra caution when around others. Should they be denied service as well, if they become ill? How do you track as they come in to the ER? Not everyone's file is immediately available.

We also know that the vaccinated can both carry and contract the virus, the CDC and WHO both acknowledge this fact, so the vaccine is not the total answer to the problem. Refusing care to those we don't deem worthy isn't an answer either, as today it's covid, tomorrow it could be "_______" fill in the blank with any disease...

 

All of these diseases you list above are not highly contagious respiratory diseases than can be largely ameloriated with a cheap, effective and safe vaccine.  How many times does this have to be said?  However, I totally agree that the only unvaccinated people allowed to be in the hospital should be the patients and they should not be denied treatment..  If we punish people for their own stupidity, it will eventually come around to punish us because we all do stupid things.

2 minutes ago, chare said:

What are you basing your apparent assumption that I don't understand any of this on?

From your question:      

22 hours ago

  On 11/27/2021 at 11:42 AM, subee said:

Do you remember not too far back in a more optimistic cloud that 70-80% vaccination rates were considered high enough to be effective?  As was totally predicted from the beginning, the anti-vaxxers have caused that bar to have to be raised to a figure more difficult to achieve [emphasis added].

How exactly have anti-vaxxers done this?  

[Hoosier_RN, MSN]

20 minutes ago, subee said:

All of these diseases you list above are not highly contagious respiratory diseases than can be largely ameloriated with a cheap, effective and safe vaccine.  How many times does this have to be said?  However, I totally agree that the only unvaccinated people allowed to be in the hospital should be the patients and they should not be denied treatment..  If we punish people for their own stupidity, it will eventually come around to punish us because we all do stupid things.

I addressed that in my comment, very 1st paragraph stating that I understand the difference....again, if we refuse care to ANYONE for ANY disease, it could become any disease/disorder next. I realize covid is spread via respiratory droplets. But what we refuse today, becomes a different refusal tomorrow, depending on perceived "evil" for lack of a better term. I won't refuse today, nor will I refuse tomorrow. I work in a dialysis clinic where I have seen Hep B & C, HIV, have traveled and cared for covid patients since the beginning. I've never asked for vax or treatment status for any disease. I make sure to care for myself, by taking vaccines, good self care, etc. I learned a long time ago, I don't control others, any more than they control me

Yes, subee, I agree it's a cheap easy fix. At the end of the day, though, I refuse to be judgemental towards someone for not taking it. 2 nurses in my clinic want to argue about it constantly, but they are also the same 2 that argue that the Hep B patient should be refused care (she was an IV drug user). I refuse to argue. I provide best care that I can, to all that I can. In the end, it's all that we can do

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

22 hours ago, chare said:

How exactly have anti-vaxxers done this?  

https://a.MSN.com/r/2/AARefkj?m=en-us&referrerID=InAppShare

 

This is a WSJ video interviewing a physician who is a commentator from Fox.  He postulates that we may need vaccination rates of 95 to 100% to achieve herd immunity.  How can we ever achieve herd immunity if only 100% of the population is vaccinated?  Maybe Omicron will be kinder but it's not looking good because of the increased number of spike proteins.  Hopefully, it will respond well to our present vaccinations.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

1 hour ago, Hoosier_RN said:

I addressed that in my comment, very 1st paragraph stating that I understand the difference....again, if we refuse care to ANYONE for ANY disease, it could become any disease/disorder next. I realize covid is spread via respiratory droplets. But what we refuse today, becomes a different refusal tomorrow, depending on perceived "evil" for lack of a better term. I won't refuse today, nor will I refuse tomorrow. I work in a dialysis clinic where I have seen Hep B & C, HIV, have traveled and cared for covid patients since the beginning. I've never asked for vax or treatment status for any disease. I make sure to care for myself, by taking vaccines, good self care, etc. I learned a long time ago, I don't control others, any more than they control me

Yes, subee, I agree it's a cheap easy fix. At the end of the day, though, I refuse to be judgemental towards someone for not taking it. 2 nurses in my clinic want to argue about it constantly, but they are also the same 2 that argue that the Hep B patient should be refused care (she was an IV drug user). I refuse to argue. I provide best care that I can, to all that I can. In the end, it's all that we can do

I'm sorry.  I mis-interpreted your post.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

1 hour ago, chare said:

What are you basing your apparent assumption that I don't understand any of this on?

My reply got merged into someone's post but I assume that you don't understand from your question:   

 ago, chare said:

From your question:      

22 hours ago

  On 11/27/2021 at 11:42 AM, subee said:

Do you remember not too far back in a more optimistic cloud that 70-80% vaccination rates were considered high enough to be effective?  As was totally predicted from the beginning, the anti-vaxxers have caused that bar to have to be raised to a figure more difficult to achieve [emphasis added].

How exactly have anti-vaxxers done this?  

[chare]

15 minutes ago, subee said:

1 hour ago, chare said:

What are you basing your apparent assumption that I don't understand any of this on?

My reply got merged into someone's post but I assume that you don't understand from your question:   

My question was in response to this:

On 11/27/2021 at 11:42 AM, subee said:

Do you remember not too far back in a more optimistic cloud that 70-80% vaccination rates were considered high enough to be effective?  As was totally predicted from the beginning, the anti-vaxxers have caused that bar to have to be raised to a figure more difficult to achieve [emphasis added].

Again, my question is this; if we require x percentage of the population be vaccinated to be effective, how does it matter where the x% come from?

You have repeatedly questioned my capability to understand.  And when I ask you how you came to these conclusions you are only reply is "from your question." 

Now, it's my turn to question you, and wonder if your being intentionally obtuse, or you just don't get it.  

ETA: Either way, as it's obvious you're not going to answer my question, I think it's time to disengage from this conversation.

Strikes colors and withdraws from field of battle.

[Matricies, BSN]

I think mandates are a nice idea in theory and they could have been good in implementation but unfortunately at this point in the pandemic, all thats going to happen is a massive shortage of workers due to people not taking the vaccine. It's been shown that trying to force people to take it, isn't working to well and refuting incorrect information on vaccines and covid isn't even as effective. There has to be a fundamental change on how we combat misinformation and tend to peoples concerns with covid and vaccines or we're probably not going to get anywhere with this.

That being said, I am vaccinated and want people to get vaccinated. Way too many people died before the vaccine was released and way to many people die not getting it. Way too many, "I wish I had gotten the vaccine" news reports. There is a lot of emotion going on with this pandemic and it really is getting in the way of us having an effective response to the situation not as individuals but as a community and society. Until we deal with that part of the pandemic, we're probably not going to have effective response any time soon.