I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Stanford rape trial and sentence on all nurses. I'm opening up the discussion as I feel it pertains to us in many ways. One as people who may have been victims or know others who have been victims of sexual violence and two as nurses that have taken care of others in this situation, whether directly in ER or a patient suffering from PTSD with other health problems as well.
I applaud the survivor's bravery and her impact statement that has gone public. I hope this will comfort other survivors, but even more I hope this will discourage rape in general. Campus rapes are common and rapes at frats are in the news frequently. Once again a college athlete got off with just a slap on the wrist, although I don't think he counted on all the negative publicity this case has garnered.
What disturbs me the most is the letters of the parents to the judge. The father's don't punish him for 20 minutes of action. Then the mother's letter, who by the way is a nurse for gynecological surgeries and in the past as a pediatric nurse, who had not one iota of empathy for the victim. Her letter simply astonished me. I can't believe as a woman, as a nurse, as a mother of a daughter she had no empathy for the victim! This troubles me the most! I imagine in her years as a nurse she must have taken care of a rape victim and her total lack of empathy for the victim disturbs me greatly!
I've counseled my daughters to not drink excessively, for MANY REASONS, risk of being assaulted just being one of them.
But you are absolutely correct that if my daughter was raped, I would not expect her "take responsibility" for her rape because of what she was wearing. Deflection my butt. Are you kidding me?
You have taught your daughters risk prevention and moderation? Why? Why not teach them to just do whatever they want, wear what they want, associate with whomever they please in whatever setting they choose?
I've already linked to a very thorough analysis of some research on rape that shows that there are a lot of habitual predators who deliberately get a victim more intoxicated (or find one who already is) for the express purpose of taking advantage of someone who doesn't have the capacity to enforce a "no." They get away with it when they're around people who believe the claim that "bad decisions were made."
I've been reading this thread in depth. Some very thought provoking subjects brought up.
I like this point... it is incredibly true. Just because someone gets drunk does not give anyone the right to take advantage of a person's ability to consent. I myself have met, and experienced the predators who will PURPOSELY, have the intent of getting their victim intoxicated to the point that coherency is lost. And let me share this point my friends- particularly those who believe that dressing immodest and surrounding yourself with strangers is the problem- the majority of rapists do it to individuals they know. WHY??? Because the victim trusts that person. I raise my hand to that one.
I can tell you my conduct was that of a classy lady. But after being pressured to continue drinking with my "friend" I begged the bartender to stop because I just couldn't handle anymore. As soon as I went outside, the brisk air hit and I was mentally gone. In that sort of state- I refuse to take blame (I did not drink with the intention of being sexually assaulted by a friend I trusted). I couldn't even talk at that point- but flashes of that night occur and I recall tears streaming down my face during the ordeal.
SO ladies and gentlemen- being escorted to your car, not going out to parties, dressing modest- is not going to help anything.
I will say this, I went to a counselor who told me to bury the incident inside. That the sooner I gave the incident less importance, the lesser it will become in my life. She advised that it sounded like 2 drunk adults who "made a mistake." Well, I beg to differ. And this is a prime example of what is wrong with society. Bury it- it's partially your fault. Drunken behavior so therefore there's no one to blame. Rape culture right there at it's finest. Meanwhile, the victim is already dealing with guilt of what they could have done differently that night.
You have taught your daughters risk prevention and moderation? Why? Why not teach them to just do whatever they want, wear what they want, associate with whomever they please in whatever setting they choose?
I DO teach them to wear whatever they want-because I know rape has ZERO to do with what they are wearing. Why do you continue to insist that it does?
You have taught your daughters risk prevention and moderation? Why? Why not teach them to just do whatever they want, wear what they want, associate with whomever they please in whatever setting they choose?
Now this is completely unhinged.
Also highly manipulative, considering that the thread had finally moved away from talking about him.
You have taught your daughters risk prevention and moderation? Why? Why not teach them to just do whatever they want, wear what they want, associate with whomever they please in whatever setting they choose?
Actually. why shouldn't a woman have the right to wear what she wants, choose her own friends and where to associate with said friends??
I think it's actually a pretty normal fear reaction. If they admit others didn't deserve it, they admit it can happen to them. Blaming the victim allows a false safety of "I wouldn't be do something that puts myself at risk." I see similar with being a DV survivor and women going "I'd never let someone hit me"
That's not even close to the situation though, it assumes that rape is inevitable. A better example is that you have damn. At this damn, no one cares about the people living down river, and occasionally they open the flood gates, just because they want to.
Asking the people down river to move just because the damn controllers are selfish a**hats is like asking people to dress modestly so they don't attract the rapists.
I've been quietly following this thread for days now but I really feel like I need to speak up due to some of these awful, victim-blaming comments.
First of all, sex crimes are NEVER the victim's fault. At all. Period. It has nothing to do with what you are wearing or any of that BS.
According to some of the people on here, I shouldn't have been at my aunt's house when I was 5 years old where my much older cousin continually abused me until I was 6. Must've been too sexy for him to resist!
I shouldn't have been sitting in a stairwell of my apartment complex on a summer day when I was 9, because then my neighbor wouldn't have came over and molested me.
I shouldn't have taken the bus to my cousin's house when I was 14, where two drunken men followed me off the bus and tried to grab me and do who knows what to me.
I shouldn't have stopped to buy a soda from a taco truck on a public street when I was 15, where a few of the workers came out, grabbed me and my friend and put their hands all over us before we ran like hell.
And I shouldn't have gone camping with a group a friends when I was 16, where I was awoken to an acquaintance's hand up my dress.
These events are far more common than people like to believe. I'm sure nearly every woman has at least one story where someone violated or attempted to violate her. It doesn't matter what age you are or what your attire is.
I had severe PTSD when I was a kid because of all the sexual abuse and it has taken me years to finally be ok with myself and not feel dirty or shameful and when people make horrible comments implying or deliberately saying that victims play a part in their crimes and could have prevented them from occurring it is incredibly damaging and hurtful.
Think about what you're saying and how it can affect others, watch some documentaries on rape survivors, and learn about sexual predators. Saying you're "old-fashioned" is a BS cop-out used as a cover for your sexist views. Get a grip!
I'm also pretty shocked that a fellow survivor would be spouting off that same rhetoric. Sounds like they have more healing to do.
I am addressing the culture that men and women are the same but as soon as a man strikes/rapes a woman the "BUT I"M JUST A GIRL" defense comes out. Either women are the fairer sex or they aren't. It seems hypocritical.
I am saying don't act like superwoman in one breath and a damsel in distress in the next. The type of women who competes with men on every level and insists on being treated the same and then wants a man to open doors and lift boxes. It is hypocrisy.
Women need to stop acting all empowered and equal in every way on one hand and then all helpless the big bad guy raped me on the other. Make up your mind.
I hardly know where to start...
I've testified in several dozen rape cases. I have never, not once, heard the "I'm just a girl" defense come out. How would that even sound like in real life? And what the blazes do you mean by defense anyway? You know that the rape victim sits with the prosecution side in a trial. The one that needs to mount a defense is the alleged rapist. The prosecution has to prove their case. The defendant needs to put up a defense.
I don't know what the "fairer sex" means to you. It's an archaic expression and I have no idea which exact character traits you assign someone labeled this way.
I'm trying very hard to decipher the exact nature of the hypocrisy you think is present. It's clear as mud to me.
Is it something like this? Admit to belonging to the fairer sex and be granted the privilege/right to feel wronged if a man strikes you or rapes you and have the expectation that the criminal justice system will agree that a crime has been committed against you.
But..
claim that you don't think that the label "the fairer sex" applies to you.. then... what? You've lost that right? Do you also lose any other legal and human rights in the process?
Your own words; either women are the fairer sex, or they aren't.
What does that really mean, in plain English?
I'm 186 cm tall, or 6' 1". I'm very muscular, the gym is pretty much my second home. There's hardly any fat on my frame. I'm as physically strong as many men, stronger than some, weaker than others. I don't ask that men lift boxes for me. If a man goes through a door right in front of me, I expect him to hold it up for me. If I go through a door right in front of a man, I will hold it up for him. It's common courtesy. (What do the darn doors and boxes have to do with rape, anyway?) I'm not particularly pure and virginal. (I thought that I should mention that part, since one of the many definitions of "the fairer sex" seems to involve purity).
Okay, now that we've established that. If I were to get raped, would I qualify as a victim in your book? Does the fact that I'm physically strong mean that I don't qualify as a victim? Or does the fact that I don't ask for help with box-lifting mean that I do? I really do need to ask, because I don't understand your logic at all.
As I said, I don't ask men to lift boxes for me but if I did... then what are the arenas that I should no longer try to "compete with men" in?
Which rights specifically that a man has by default does a woman in your opinion have to forfeit, in order to be regarded as a bona fide rape victim when she is raped? You did after all say that we shouldn't act all empowered and equal.
Kooky Korky has said that men can be open to rape charges if they "misstep" and that it's a lie that especially women can "have it all", all the time because of biological facts of life. I asked him to clarify what exactly characterizes one of those missteps, what the biological facts are and exactly what the "all" entails, that we (women) can't have all the time. I'm waiting for him to shed some light on that.
I don't do well with evasive, cryptical and vague. I really prefer straight answers.
As I mentioned a few paragraphs back, I really would appreciate it if you could share what specifically what you think that women can't do (but men are allowed to) if they want to retain the right of saying "the big bad guy raped me". (In your own wording and I must admit, it did surprise me somewhat).
By the way, I don't think that anyone has made the claim that men and women are the same (that would be rather silly),only that men and women should be afforded equal rights and freedoms.
I've testified in several dozen rape cases. I have never, not once, heard the "I'm just a girl" defense come out. How would that even sound like in real life? And what the blazes do you mean by defense anyway. You know that the rape victim sits with the prosecution side in a trial. The one that needs to mount a defense is the alleged rapist. The prosecution has to prove their case. The defendant needs to put up a defense.
I don't know what the "fairer sex" means to you. It's an archaic expression and I have no idea which exact character traits you assign someone labeled this way.
I'm trying very hard to decipher the exact nature of the hypocrisy you think is present. It's clear as mud to me.
Is it something like this? Admit to belonging to the fairer sex and be granted the privilege/right to feel wronged if a man strikes you or rapes you and have the expectation that the criminal justice system will agree that a crime has been committed against you.
But..
claim that you don't think that the label "the fairer sex" applies to you.. then... what? You've lost that right? Do you also lose any other legal and human rights in the process?
Your own words; either women are the fairer sex, or they aren't.
What does that really mean, in plain English?
I'm 186 cm tall, or 6' 1". I'm very muscular, the gym is pretty much my second home. There's hardly any fat on my frame. I'm as physically strong as many men, stronger than some, weaker than others. I don't ask that men lift boxes for me. If a man goes through a door right in front of me, I expect him to hold it up for me. If I go through a door right in front of a man, I will hold it up for him. It's common courtesy. (What do the darn doors and boxes have to do with rape, anyway?) I'm not particularly pure and virginal. (I thought that I should mention that part, since one of the many definitions of "the fairer sex" seems to involve purity).
Okay, now that we've established that. If I were to get raped, would I qualify as a victim in your book? Does the fact that I'm physically strong mean that I don't qualify as a victim. Or does the fact that I don't ask for help with box-lifting mean that I do? I really do need to ask, because I don't understand your logic at all.
As I said, I don't ask men to lift boxes for me but if I did... then what are the arenas that I should no longer try to "compete with men" in?
Which rights specifically that a man has by default does a woman in your opinion have to forfeit, in order to be regarded as a bona fide rape victim when she is raped? You did after all say that we shouldn't act all empowered and equal.
Kooky Korky has said that men can be open to rape charges if they "misstep" and that it's a lie that especially women can "have it all", all the time because of biological facts of life. I asked him to clarify what exactly characterizes one of those missteps, what the biological facts are and exactly what the "all" entails, that we (women) can't have all the time. I'm waiting for him to shed some light on that.
I don't do well with evasive, cryptical and vague. I really prefer straight answers.
As I mentioned a few paragraphs back, I really would appreciate it if you could share what specifically what you think that women can't do (but men are allowed to) if they want to retain the right of saying "the big bad guy raped me". (In your own wording and I must admit, it did surprise me somewhat).
By the way, I don't think that anyone has made the claim that men and women are the same (that would be rather silly),only that men and women should be afforded equal rights and freedoms.
Well said (as usual), macawake. I honestly don't know what the heck she is trying to say with this fairer sex and hypocrisy argument.
I'm not the strongest person in the world, so I would probably need some help lifting boxes, but unless I have applied for a job, you know, lifting boxes, I fail to see how that disqualifies me from being treated fairly in the workplace, as it relates to basic human rights, and most certainly having the right to not be raped, even if I'm wearing a short skirt, even if I'm drinking a glass of wine, even if I am spending time with friends of my own choosing.
Kooky Korky, BSN, RN
5,216 Posts
You have taught your daughters risk prevention and moderation? Why? Why not teach them to just do whatever they want, wear what they want, associate with whomever they please in whatever setting they choose?