I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Stanford rape trial and sentence on all nurses. I'm opening up the discussion as I feel it pertains to us in many ways. One as people who may have been victims or know others who have been victims of sexual violence and two as nurses that have taken care of others in this situation, whether directly in ER or a patient suffering from PTSD with other health problems as well.
I applaud the survivor's bravery and her impact statement that has gone public. I hope this will comfort other survivors, but even more I hope this will discourage rape in general. Campus rapes are common and rapes at frats are in the news frequently. Once again a college athlete got off with just a slap on the wrist, although I don't think he counted on all the negative publicity this case has garnered.
What disturbs me the most is the letters of the parents to the judge. The father's don't punish him for 20 minutes of action. Then the mother's letter, who by the way is a nurse for gynecological surgeries and in the past as a pediatric nurse, who had not one iota of empathy for the victim. Her letter simply astonished me. I can't believe as a woman, as a nurse, as a mother of a daughter she had no empathy for the victim! This troubles me the most! I imagine in her years as a nurse she must have taken care of a rape victim and her total lack of empathy for the victim disturbs me greatly!
Im not at all sure where the disconnect is on this issue.
I simply do not understand the "she's tempting all of these innocent boys into rape" mentality.
Oneinfive, what you've said here sounds over the top and crazy. But IT IS NOT.
It is over the top and crazy. I know she doesn't mean it literally, she is speaking from her pain. I wish she didn't have the pain, I know from her post she's been deeply hurt.
Jen (from other post) - there are lots of things we shouldn't have to do. But we live in a fallen world. It is an imperfect world, filled with imperfect people. Most of us are just trying to fit in and get by, some are very sick and hurt the innocents. I don't know why God lets it be that way. So we have to take precautions, have to be careful.
I see that you are quite comfortably ignoring tons of available criminological research in order to convince yourself that adhering to your own personal moral beliefs actually has a bearing on criminal activity. You're wrong. The majority of rapes aren't even committed by men who are strangers or even new acquaintances. Most women who get raped get raped by a boyfriend, husband, ex-boyfriend or ex-husband.
Reading the above quote I can't fathom how you manage to convince yourself that you don't assign at least partial blame to the rape victim.
You know, when I say that no woman, man or child should ever be raped and no one ever deserves being raped, I don't find it necessary to add on a "but" or some other qualifier at the end of the statement.
That's one of the most cold comments that I've ever seen on AN. You say that you don't lack compassion but the above comment gives me the chills. You do understand that what you are describing is something that recently happened to a real, live breathing human being??? Have you listened to what the young woman said about her feelings and how her life has changed after the attack? Can you imagine what hearing your words would do to her? I think that they have the capacity to cut through her soul and mind like knives.
To me, you sound flippant. Don't get drunk, don't go off with a man = Don't end up naked behind a dumpster. What a neat little solution.
And you are still maintaining that you're not blaming the victim?
There is such a thing as saying or conveying something through omission. You've spent many posts describing how you think girls and women should look and behave. You been markedly silent about how boys and men should dress, behave, in what kind of events outside of their homes it is appropriate that they participate in. Don't you see the message you're sending?
What does this mean? What do you mean by misstep? They'd be open to rape charges if they actually raped someone. Other than that, false rape allegations don't happen very often at all. But I'm willing to bet, without I admit having looked at the research, that it's more likely to happen in a culture where women are judged harshly for having pre-marital sex.
I just think how to avoid rape accusations is an odd thing to teach one's sons. Teach them respect for the autonomy and integrity of all other human beings and I think that they'll be fine.
I have a feeling that your definition of wanton excess might differ slightly from mine. But it's a moot point, because even crime victims who lead a life in "wanton excess" deserve our compassion.
Believe me, I'm not laughing. Your words make me angry and sad. As much as I don't want to, I remember the look in the eyes of the many rape victims I've met and interviewed. I can still hear their words. I remember reviewing forensic evidence and pictures of bruises and other injuries sustained during the attacks. To think that even one victim will be afraid to seek help or report that she's been attacked because they didn't live up to some person's idea of morality, is heart-breaking and infuriating at the same time.
I have also treated rape victims and victims of other bodily assaults, have been an assault victim myself. It is always very painful and very difficult for victims, their loved ones who are with them, and for staff. I am not the monster you make me out to be.
Are you aware that the Duke Lacrosse defendants were acquitted? (Another poster mentioned this case). That the prosecutor, Mr. Nifong, withheld exculpatory evidence that he had early on? That he prosecuted them, knowing they were innocent? Is that OK with you? False rape and false other charges happen often enough. No I don't know statistics, but various Innocence Project and similar groups help get innocent people release after years of prison and they do it every day. One false accusation is all it takes to pretty much ruin a life.
I am anything but flippant.
Victims should report crimes. If I have caused anyone hurt, please forgive me (Will you? Can you?), but they should report no matter what anyone says, I or anyone else. I reported my assault but the police never even went to the crime scene! Did I let their incompetence or lack of compassion or racial hatred or whatever was the reason for their behavior dictate how I should think or feel? No, I didn't. I went to their boss and received an apology. Wow, that changed everything.
In America, the justice system is not about making the victim of a crime feel better or avoid pain. It is about protecting the rights of the accused, like it or not.
Was it Rose Queen who was a victim of sexual molestation at age 8? I can't find the post right now and have to get going, but wanted to address this. I apologize if I am naming the wrong person.
You did nothing wrong. You were an innocent child, a victim of a terrible crime. Your situation was completely different than the Stanford rape case. I am sorry to disgust you and sorry that this terrible thing happened to you. Again, please hear me - you are not at all to blame or responsible for what a terrible, vicious, despicable adult did to you. I pray that you will have healing and peace.
Ruby, I have indeed taught my sons to respect women and all people. Re-read my post. They are well aware that sex belongs in marriage and needs to be consensual at all times, and that sex is beautiful when used as God intended - in marriage for enjoyment, for procreation - one man and one woman in marriage. Now i will hear from the LGBT crowd what an evil person I am. It's definitely not safe here to hold a different viewpoint.
Have you not availed yourself of the reams of literature that indicate that sexual orientation is not a choice? That it is most likely genetic, or influenced by hormonal factors that occur in utero?
Let's reframe this. Did someone TEACH you to become aroused by a beautiful woman you encountered at some time in your life, or did it happen without conscious intent? I'm guessing the latter. Perhaps your face flushed, your heart began to beat wildly; maybe you became flustered by an erection that seemed to have a will of its own (and actually, did have a will of its own). Were those sensations a "choice" you made, or was it a physical reaction borne of something in your biological makeup? Could someone "convince" you to become aroused by a man by using rational arguments? I'm guessing not. Even if you pretended to agree that being aroused by a man was the right thing, or something you could get on board with, when it came down to it, you just wouldn't be able to, because that is not how you are wired. Now, why would you assume it would be any different with gays? Don't you think they tried to fit into the mold their families and society demanded of them? Do you really think they rejected their "true," "normal" impulses of being physically aroused by the opposite sex in order to rebel against parents or society, or to "bring shame" onto their families? Do you realize that many many gay people have felt suicidal because they know that their true attractions cause others to be outraged, repulsed, or otherwise disgusted with them? Why would anyone CHOOSE to do that?
Due to biological factors beyond our control, we are physically aroused by who we are physically aroused by. It can even be so specific as being very attracted to people with dark hair and blue eyes, and while not grossed out by someone with blonde hair, left feeling kind of "meh" by them.
The research is pretty clear that sexual orientation is a biological phenomenon for the most part and is not a choice rooted in malice. Which means that God created us as he created us, and if he is creating human beings who have an inborn sexual attraction to others of the same gender, then we should not be labeling this as a "sin," because God doesn't make mistakes like that. The Bible was written by men who had no understanding of the biological roots of sexual orientation, so we can forgive them for their biases. People of our generation, however, have no such excuse.
I stated that I didn't know the facts of the case.
It sure didn't stop you from talking out of your &*^% about it, though, did it? Why would you have anything critical to say about the woman when you hadn't even acquainted yourself with the most basic of details about it? Who are you to criticize someone you knew NOTHING about? Have you forgotten that Jesus specifically preached against judging others harshly for moral failings when one only needs to look in the mirror to find things to worry about?
As for God, I am talking about Jesus. You all know I am a born again Christian, a hated minority here on AN and in the world.
That's patently false. There are a fair number of Christians who post on AN and have managed to have compassion for this victim, who didn't blame her or excuse the rapist, or lacking that, had the "Christian" grace to keep vicious comments to themselves.
Do you want your kids to bring shame to your family? Is that a good thing? Do you want them playing with fire? Is it ok for them to get burned because they didn't use good judgment?
I have two daughters. I have tried to warn them about ways to keep themselves safe. I actually HAVE told them to watch their drinking while out and about, to not walk around in the dark alone, to be wary of strangers. I've bought them pepper spray and installed security systems in their rentals.
But you know what? If they slipped up or even willfully ignored my advice, they would not "bring shame to my family." How messed up is that? I would view them as being human, and as such, making human mistakes. My heart would break from the thought of their suffering for making an imprudent choice. I also concede their right to reject some of my values, as I rejected some of my parents' values as well, as they rejected some of their own parents values, etc. I would never feel "shame" by my daughter's actions, as long as they were not trying to hurt someone else. I might feel shame if my son raped an unconscious woman, no matter how imprudent her actions were in the process of getting to such a vulnerable state. Yeah, I might feel embarrassed if my child purposely victimized another human being because I'd wonder where I went wrong in creating the ability of my child to feel empathy. At the end of the day, some people are sociopathic no matter that their parents tried to teach them to respect their fellow man. If I've done my absolute best, I would feel a deep sense of sadness, not "shame."
In spite of your conciliatory tone in this post, it still comes down to the fact that you have extreme anti female biases and lack of respect for the fact that a rapist is 100% accountable for his actions, that what a woman wears, or what a woman drinks, or what her past consensual sexual behavior may have been has no place whatsoever in a discussion about the guilt or appropriate punishment of a convicted rapist.
And finally, read this again: Any man who has to exercise "total control" to keep himself from raping a scantily clad woman, an intoxicated woman, or an unconscious woman is a man with severe moral shortcomings.
Specializes in OR, Nursing Professional Development.
Was it Rose Queen who was a victim of sexual molestation at age 8? I can't find the post right now and have to get going, but wanted to address this. I apologize if I am naming the wrong person.
You did nothing wrong. You were an innocent child, a victim of a terrible crime. Your situation was completely different than the Stanford rape case. I am sorry to disgust you and sorry that this terrible thing happened to you. Again, please hear me - you are not at all to blame or responsible for what a terrible, vicious, despicable adult did to you. I pray that you will have healing and peace.
No. Just no. This woman was no more responsible for what happened to her than I am for what happened to me. You just don't get it and I suspect you never will. No single person asks to be raped or molested. Not one. You continue victim blaming. You continue to be part of the problem. It's not because of your religious beliefs; it's because you clearly don't grasp the concept that rape victims bear no responsibility for the actions of the rapist. None whatsoever. There is no difference between me and the victim in this case.
You did nothing wrong. You were an innocent child, a victim of a terrible crime. Your situation was completely different than the Stanford rape case. I am sorry to disgust you and sorry that this terrible thing happened to you. Again, please hear me - you are not at all to blame or responsible for what a terrible, vicious, despicable adult did to you. I pray that you will have healing and peace.
I think you have created fictional details that were not described by any poster in this thread. Even so, if you are addressing ONE victim out of the many as not at fault, do not be surprised when your hateful words are rejected by everyone here.
It's ironic that I posted a reply (reminded of an old statement by another person's reference to Amish modesty and the fact that it does not prevent assault - which you find offensive) to your "God first" line from a while back, then deleted it because I didn't want to get into religious flaming. And here you are making it about religion again.
So I'll do my best to recreate what I originally wrote.
The great kings of the Old Testament had hundreds of both wives and concubines (aka breeders/**** toys) including David, the "man after God's own heart himself" - who, by the way, peeped on a woman bathing, violated her, then had her husband murdered so he could keep her. It wasn't uncommon for a man to have multiple wives, even just a Joe Schmoe kind of guy. It wasn't men who had to remain faithful and pure, it was women - so I don't find it surprising that you hide behind religion. Deuteronomy 22 explicitly states that a rape victim who doesn't cry out during an assault in a populated area should be stoned to death along with her attacker, so again, you are displaying VERY old-fashioned "Christian" values when you say victims are responsible for their assaults.
I say these things as a Christian, so the religious martyr card won't work with me.
You barged into a discussion about the Stanford rape, and the strongest words you have against the perpetrator, who was convicted of three felonies by the evidence in a court of law (but you don't know what actually happened and don't care to find out) are that the victim MAY not have been to blame.
You have decided in your own mind how the world works and are quite impervious when others try to orient you to reality. You're considering that maybe rape isn't sex isn't rape? I hope you keep going with that thought, but I'm singularly unimpressed. You clearly have not read the research I have linked. What it shows is that men will admit to a whole lot of rape if you don't call it the R word. Even earlier posters here have claimed that "rape" and "nonconsensual sex" (which is literally the definition of rape) are not the same thing. When you fuss that we are picking apart your posts, choosing only the things we want to hear, the reality is that we are summing up your attitudes and beliefs - which are readily apparent - using words you don't like.
You believe women can be to blame for their rape, and they have a responsibility not to lure innocent boys into raping them, but you don't like the word misogynist. You balk at the phrase "asking for it" but you can't seem to stop talking about women dressing provocatively and drinking too much as CAUSES for rape.
We're literally mirroring back the exact sentiments you have expressed, but you protest when the ideas don't sound quite as sensible when reframed in our own words and experiences.
Your ignorance is not worth another discussion, not worth going back and finding your very own words to disprove again and again and again. You don't care about women, you certainly don't care about rape, and it is not worth my time. You think you're getting "flamed" but if you look at the tone of posts throughout this thread, I think I (and pretty much everyone here) have been EXTRAORDINARILY even-tempered in response to the nonsense. I'm done.
It's time for me to go figure out how to block specific accounts by name again, because I've had enough of this ish.
No. Just no. This woman was no more responsible for what happened to her than I am for what happened to me. You just don't get it and I suspect you never will. No single person asks to be raped or molested. Not one. You continue victim blaming. You continue to be part of the problem. It's not because of your religious beliefs; it's because you clearly don't grasp the concept that rape victims bear no responsibility for the actions of the rapist. None whatsoever. There is no difference between me and the victim in this case.
*sigh*
Like I said in my initial post, a lot of people don't get it until it happens to them or someone they know...and then I suspect, they still will be a small percentage that will perpetuate those beliefs that continue to not support victims and survivors of trauma, unfortunately.
I applaud you, Ruby, macawake, RescueNinjaKy, and many posters subsequently who have been able to eloquently uphold the position to combat and challenge those who don't realize of continue to uphold the culture that breed trauma; I can not adequately do this without having the inherent ability to not become triggered; I know my stance and my position on this matter and decided to be a realist in order to self-preserve myself in these discussions; make no mistake, blaming,shaming, and inherently guilting people who have been through trauma is NOT the solution to this problem that is indeed a public health and a public safety issue that happens every 6 on average in the US.
How to block a poster- go to your account and find edit ignore list. Add the poster's name and hit save.
Thanks much, Rose.
And thanks, LadyFree. Sometimes taking care of yourself and letting other people go to bat is the right move, and I support that as well as the people who are speaking up.
I've felt like upchucking a fair few times while reading this thread but I CANNOT let that kind of mentality go unchallenged. At least in an online forum no one can talk over me, I can take the time to gather my thoughts, and I can come and go from the discussion at will. In person I would probably just string a series of 4 letter words together and make sure I never had to see the person again. At least here, even if people don't listen, I have a voice.
Are you aware that the Duke Lacrosse defendants were acquitted? (Another poster mentioned this case). That the prosecutor, Mr. Nifong, withheld exculpatory evidence that he had early on? That he prosecuted them, knowing they were innocent? Is that OK with you? False rape and false other charges happen often enough. No I don't know statistics, but various Innocence Project and similar groups help get innocent people release after years of prison and they do it every day. One false accusation is all it takes to pretty much ruin a life.
What does this have to do with price of tea in China? The Stanford rape case isn't remotely comparable. There were WITNESSES to this attack. They were male, they knew neither the victim nor the rapist. There was no DA agenda, no victim being dishonest, no false accusation.
It's really incredible that we have people in this country who actually believe that false rape accusations are not only happening often, but often enough that they constitute a larger social problem than actual rapes. That the average good guy is only one "misstep" away from a rape conviction. That a woman would rather falsely accuse a man of rape, and go through the hell that accompanies such an accusation, than move on from a poor consensual decision. That's such rubbish.
Hopefully, we can learn from each other, if only to read carefully and not pick out only the parts of a post you find disturbing, but to read the whole thing, like the parts that say Turner was wrong and that the girl's condition did not excuse his actions. You did see that, right?
Yes I did see it, but I'm not convinced that this is your genuine heartfelt opinion. When you keep adding questions worthy of a really callous defense lawyer after your statements, you cast doubt on the veracity of the original statement you made. You invalidate your stated position when you go on to demonstrate your thought process on sex crimes. As far as I'm concerned you're faced with credibility issues on this particular subject.
There are only two things you need to ask yourself if you want to establish if a sexual assault or rape has taken place.
1) Did a sexual act occur?
2) Was that sexual act consensual?
If the question is yes to the first question and no to the second, then you know a crime was comitted.
When you keep on asking questions like these:
He apparently followed this intoxicated woman when she left the party. Or did they leave together or what?
Did he drag her there? Lace her drink with something? Force drink down her throat?
So you expect that a woman may do things we've been talking about here - and I don't know if she did them or not (excessive ETOH, showing off her body excessively, going off alone with Turner),
Your line of reasoning combined with your stated beliefs that women should dress more modestly, not go off with men on their own, not engage in pre-marital sex etc. makes me believe that you do not assign 100% of the blame to the rapist in every rape case, regardless of the surrounding circumstances.
Arghh, I sound like a broken record.
Now i will hear from the LGBT crowd what an evil person I am. It's definitely not safe here to hold a different viewpoint.
I concede that it might not be fun or pleasant to be you in this particular thread seeing as the majority holds a view diametrically opposed to yours, but you're in no danger. You're perfectly safe. Enough drama.
The LGBT crowd? Really? I'm not willing to get into a new topic of debate, this one's depressing enough. Suffice it to say that I support the right of any consenting adult to fall in love with, love, make love to, have sex with, marry (or not), any other consenting adult, regardless of the genetic characteristics of that other someone.
I have also treated rape victims and victims of other bodily assaults, have been an assault victim myself. It is always very painful and very difficult for victims, their loved ones who are with them, and for staff.
I understand that, as a nurse it's something we do come in contact with. I probably wasn't very clear when I mentioned that I'd interviewed many rape victims and that their stories have really made an impact. I did it in a law enforcement capacity, not as a nurse. The questions you ask and the way you have to ask them and the materials you have to review are quite different from what a nurse or other healthcare professional does. I made the victims relive their attacks. In detail. If a victim tells me that the attacker said vile and cruel things to her I couldn't leave it at that. I had to ask her or him to tell me the exact words the attacker used and what he was doing when he said them, to the best of the victim's recollection. I'd make her or him repeat them. At times it felt that I was inflicting a second attack on someone who'd already suffered through something she or he shouldn't have had to. It's necessary to investigate sex crimes and to establish enough foundation for a successful prosecution. It still feels really horrible to actively have to do this to someone, and be a witness to the pain in their eyes and in their voices.
Are you aware that the Duke Lacrosse defendants were acquitted? (Another poster mentioned this case). That the prosecutor, Mr. Nifong, withheld exculpatory evidence that he had early on? That he prosecuted them, knowing they were innocent? Is that OK with you?
No, I'm not aware about the case. I'm not in or from the US. Why the **** would I be okay with a prosecutor who prosecuted someone he or she knew was innocent? Of course that would be completely unacceptable.
False rape and false other charges happen often enough.
I never said that they don't happen at all, but false rape charges are relatively rare. Sexual crimes are notoriously difficult to prosecute and achieve convictions. It's often a "he said, she said" situation with no independent witnesses and barring a sufficient amount of supportive forensic evidence a guilty perpetrator gets off all too frequently. This is yet another difficulty that sex crimes victims face. The knowledge that baring both her or his physical body as well as deeply private emotions to law enforcement/legal personnel, far from guarantees a conviction. Actual rapists who never have the face the consequences of their actions easily outnumber false rape accusations, never mind rape convictions.
However, my main reason for bringing up false rape charges was because I question the necessity of this type of parental advice:
I have raised sons to be highly aware that they are open to rape charges if they misstep.
As a sidenote, you still haven't clarified what exactly misstepping entails..
I just think that it conveys a rather poor attitude towards the female half of the population that you felt that you had to impart words of wisdom on "how to avoid rape charges" to them. To me it suggests that you expect girls and women to pounce on your unwitting sons with malicious and false accusations. The men I know, give their sons advice along the lines of treat the girl right and use a condom, not advice on how to avoid rape charges. That line of thinking simply isn't on their radar. And many of them are actually cops.
I was mugged myself, my life threatened with a gun, kicked and punched, feared for my life.
I am very sorry that happened to you, and no it wasn't your fault.
I am not the monster you make me out to be.
I don't think that you're a monster. But I strongly disagree with the many restrictions that you wish to impose on how women look, dress, behave and conduct their lives. I think that your attitude supports a culture that oppresses women and curtails their freedom and rights.
Kooky Korky, BSN, RN
5,216 Posts
It is over the top and crazy. I know she doesn't mean it literally, she is speaking from her pain. I wish she didn't have the pain, I know from her post she's been deeply hurt.
Jen (from other post) - there are lots of things we shouldn't have to do. But we live in a fallen world. It is an imperfect world, filled with imperfect people. Most of us are just trying to fit in and get by, some are very sick and hurt the innocents. I don't know why God lets it be that way. So we have to take precautions, have to be careful.