I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Stanford rape trial and sentence on all nurses. I'm opening up the discussion as I feel it pertains to us in many ways. One as people who may have been victims or know others who have been victims of sexual violence and two as nurses that have taken care of others in this situation, whether directly in ER or a patient suffering from PTSD with other health problems as well.
I applaud the survivor's bravery and her impact statement that has gone public. I hope this will comfort other survivors, but even more I hope this will discourage rape in general. Campus rapes are common and rapes at frats are in the news frequently. Once again a college athlete got off with just a slap on the wrist, although I don't think he counted on all the negative publicity this case has garnered.
What disturbs me the most is the letters of the parents to the judge. The father's don't punish him for 20 minutes of action. Then the mother's letter, who by the way is a nurse for gynecological surgeries and in the past as a pediatric nurse, who had not one iota of empathy for the victim. Her letter simply astonished me. I can't believe as a woman, as a nurse, as a mother of a daughter she had no empathy for the victim! This troubles me the most! I imagine in her years as a nurse she must have taken care of a rape victim and her total lack of empathy for the victim disturbs me greatly!
No, wait! Someone already did that. And women in this culture not only get raped; they are blamed for "enticing" the man who raped them.
Of course they are Ruby Vee. I mean, look closely at that picture... The woman in the center of it doesn't have her gaze averted demurely towards her feet. Looks like she's provocative enough to look straight ahead. And don't even get me started on the woman on the left.. That piece of cloth covering her face isn't neatly tucked in. I swear, if someone stood in front of her and were to bend down and peer upwards, they could probably see her nose!!! Complete lack of modesty on her part.
Point is, if someone wants to blame the woman, they'll find a way
So you expect that a woman may do the things we've been talking about here - and I don't know if she did them or not (excessive ETOH, showing off her body excessively, going off alone with Turner), but a man must remain totally self-controlled at all times. Sounds like the double standard has been turned around.
No actually, they don't. They just need to NOT RAPE. Simple as that!
I expect that if a women drinks excessively, "shows off her body" (whatever the heck that means), and walks outside a party with a man, and then falls to the ground unconscious, that he should shout "Help! This woman needs medical attention!" I most certainly do NOT expect him to fall upon her, insert body parts, grass, and pine needles into her body, and hump on her, because that would be RAPE.
By the way, if it takes "total self control" to stop oneself from raping an intoxicated female, I'd say some introspection and heavy duty therapy is in order.
Rape is not a normal response to an intoxicated, provocatively dressed woman. Rape is not a normal response to any man, woman, or child, no matter what the circumstances are. Rape is not a normal response, period. Something is seriously wrong with any person who feels he or she has to "hold back" in order not to rape.
Specializes in Critical Care, Med-Surg, Psych, Geri, LTC, Tele,.
And.... The poor woman who was raped stated she wore a cardigan. I'd say those aren't exactly sexually enticing! And she had a chaperone! Her own sister.
And.... The poor woman who was raped stated she wore a cardigan. I'd say those aren't exactly sexually enticing! And she had a chaperone! Her own sister.
So freaking sad!
A cardigan? Well, that explains it. Of course he couldn't be expected to refrain from violating her with his hands, foreign objects, etc., because after all, what's a poor fellow to do in the face of a woman who just isn't being "sensible"?!
I'm probably among the older folks here, and I still have a hard time understanding your viewpoint.
"For men, rape accusations are a good thing to avoid" is a really crappy attitude. Why not instead of teaching your sons to "avoid rape accusations", teach them to respect women -- hell, teach them to respect ALL human beings. Teach them that sex is a beautiful thing, but it requires consent. Without consent, it's rape. It's not about bringing shame to the family name or to a woman, rape is just plain wrong. Any God that I could believe in wouldn't condone rape.
But clearly, you have not read the facts about this rape or this victim that you're judging, accusing, blaming. The victim did not go off to a bedroom with the young "gentleman" in question -- she drank too much, too fast and left the party after which he was found in the act of raping her unconscious body behind a dumpster. Her lady parts was full of pine needles and other debris. It was a vicious, horrific act and you are saying it happened to her because she was immodest, imbibed in too much alcohol and wasn't godly enough.
I want to say more, but I suspect I'd be outside the Terms of Service. I don't know the God you know, the one who would blame such a thing on the victim. And I don't want to know such a God.
Ruby, I have indeed taught my sons to respect women and all people. Re-read my post. They are well aware that sex belongs in marriage and needs to be consensual at all times, and that sex is beautiful when used as God intended - in marriage for enjoyment, for procreation - one man and one woman in marriage. Now i will hear from the LGBT crowd what an evil person I am. It's definitely not safe here to hold a different viewpoint.
I stated that I didn't know the facts of the case. OK, it was outside behind a dumpster, not a bedroom. And the woman had so much alcohol that she passed out and fell down? Where were her friends and why did they let this happen? How did Turner find her?
Turner was/is a sick individual. He apparently followed this intoxicated woman when she left the party. Or did they leave together or what? Please do tell me the facts. I have stated that what he did was absolutely wrong, but no one seems to have read that part. Turner does not deserve the lenient sentence he got, but he is still a person. He deserves punishment and rehabilitation. Or does he?
As for God, I am talking about Jesus. You all know I am a born again Christian, a hated minority here on AN and in the world. I personally have found that anyone here who dares to state their dissenting view about issues like abortion, homosexuality, and now rape is taken to task and crucified here.
I did not say that God blamed the victim. Never said that. I believe God wants us to follow some basic morality, like the Ten Commandments. These lay a good foundation for a just society. And Jesus would not condemn a victim. He wants us, I believe, to take responsibility for ourselves and to accept His love - but it is not a love that doesn't require work on our part. He shed His blood to pay for our sins and gives us salvation as a gift. We are expected, in return, to present ourselves as a living sacrifice to advance the purpose of making His love known to all people and to represent God as loving and holy. He tells us to be holy because He is holy. Doesn't that include using wisdom?
I said it but it got missed by most of you - I do NOT think the burkah and hijab and acid in the face and genital mutilation of females are the answer. I said that neither totally running outside the basic moral foundation mentioned above nor making women property and 2nd class non-persons is right.
Rape in marriage or in a live-in arrangement believed to be stable - rape certainly can happen in these conditions. Fear of leaving dangerous domestic relationships - understandable and a well-known fact. Still, the poster who told of this situation did manage to get out and I applaud that wholeheartedly. I hope she is alright and never has to go through anything like that again. Same with other victims of crime who shared here - like the poster who had a gun put to her head. I am totally sympathetic to you. I was mugged myself, my life threatened with a gun, kicked and punched, feared for my life. I know how that feels. Could I have avoided it? Yes. I was out late one night, bad part of town, wife told me I should take my walks elsewhere. I knew better, didn't listen. My fault? Well, you decide. I don't walk in bad neighborhoods any more.
To all who are so upset with me - I am reviewing rape being about power, not about sex, and studying the other issues you raise. I can be taught and I can learn, and I appreciate that you all have given me food for thought. Hopefully, we can learn from each other, if only to read carefully and not pick out only the parts of a post you find disturbing, but to read the whole thing, like the parts that say Turner was wrong and that the girl's condition did not excuse his actions. You did see that, right?
Do you want your kids to bring shame to your family? Is that a good thing? Do you want them playing with fire? Is it ok for them to get burned because they didn't use good judgment? Isn't it preferable to teach them self-control and moderation in the first place? And to let them know that they are part of you, they share your name, and your family has a proud tradition of being decent people? What is wrong with that? With letting a kid know that you are counting on him or her to uphold and carry on that tradition? Not that you will hate them or disown them if they are not honorable people, but that it will pain you and their other relatives greatly if they turn out to be criminals? And that it is because they belong to, they are part of, they are members of, they fit in with your family? Orphans don't necessarily get that gift of belonging. But your family knows and treasures its own.
I forget who commented about the Amish, but that was a hateful statement. Where is your respect for Amish? It was a rude comment. Just because they are different from you, doesn't mean it's OK for you to ridicule them.
For the poster who wondered about rapes of children, nuns, old women in their own homes - these are things done by sick individuals and are, of course, absolutely wrong. The victims of these have done nothing wrong. I'm not sure why these things happen except that some people are very sick, sociopaths. And, no, being modest in dress and with regard to alcohol and where one goes would not have prevented these rapes. I don't know of any other answer as to why these things happen.
Why do people commit any crimes? Because they are sick, angry, short-sighted, drunk, high, some or all of these reasons? Or no real reason at all? Or???
Ruby, I have indeed taught my sons to respect women and all people. Re-read my post. They are well aware that sex belongs in marriage and needs to be consensual at all times, and that sex is beautiful when used as God intended - in marriage for enjoyment, for procreation - one man and one woman in marriage. Now i will hear from the LGBT crowd what an evil person I am. It's definitely not safe here to hold a different viewpoint.
I stated that I didn't know the facts of the case. OK, it was outside behind a dumpster, not a bedroom. And the woman had so much alcohol that she passed out and fell down? Where were her friends and why did they let this happen? How did Turner find her?
Turner was/is a sick individual. He apparently followed this intoxicated woman when she left the party. Or did they leave together or what? Please do tell me the facts. I have stated that what he did was absolutely wrong, but no one seems to have read that part. Turner does not deserve the lenient sentence he got, but he is still a person. He deserves punishment and rehabilitation. Or does he?
As for God, I am talking about Jesus. You all know I am a born again Christian, a hated minority here on AN and in the world. I personally have found that anyone here who dares to state their dissenting view about issues like abortion, homosexuality, and now rape is taken to task and crucified here.
To all who are so upset with me - I am studying up on rape being about power, not about sex, and studying the other issues you raise. I can be taught and I can learn, and I appreciate that you all have given me food for thought. Hopefully, we can learn from each other, if only to not jump down the throat of someone whose beliefs you do not share. Also, to read carefully and not pick out only the parts of a post you find disturbing, but to read the whole thing, like the parts that say Turner was wrong and that the girl's condition did not excuse his actions.
Do you want your kids to bring shame to your family? Is that a good thing? Do you want them playing with fire? Is it ok for them to get burned because they didn't use good judgment? Isn't it preferable to teach them self-control and moderation.
I forget who commented about the Amish, but that was a hateful statement. Where is your respect for Amish? It was a rude comment. Just because they are different from you, doesn't mean it's OK for you to ridicule them.
For the poster who wondered about rapes of children, nuns, old women in their own homes - these are things done by sick individuals and are, of course, absolutely wrong. The victims of these have done nothing wrong. I'm not sure why these things happen except that some people are very sick, sociopaths. And, no, being modest in dress and with regard to alcohol and where one goes would not have prevented these rapes. I don't know of any other answer as to why these things happen.
Why do people commit any crimes? Because they are sick, angry, short-sighted, drunk, high, some or all of these reasons? Or no real reason at all? Or???
Painting yourself as a victim who is simply being crucified because you believe differently than the majority of people here is a bit over the top.
You've said a lot of things that were cruel, unkind and ignorant. I've kept my head on straight and decided to have the conversation with an open heart and as little emotion as possible. I've ignored the worst of your comments, hoping that my words would make you think a little differently - consider a different perspective, or make someone out there reading, but not posting feel a little less alone.
But now you've decided that people are saying you're wrong because you're a born again Christian, and there is prejudice against you because of that.
And so now I'm done with this. You've stated your views and I find them distasteful and borderline offensive. This thread has put me through the emotional ringer. And while I'm glad that you're doing more reading into the topic, I firmly believe that there will always be a space in your mind and heart that blames the victim.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
Ruby, I have indeed taught my sons to respect women and all people. Re-read my post. They are well aware that sex belongs in marriage and needs to be consensual at all times, and that sex is beautiful when used as God intended - in marriage for enjoyment, for procreation - one man and one woman in marriage. Now i will hear from the LGBT crowd what an evil person I am. It's definitely not safe here to hold a different viewpoint.
I stated that I didn't know the facts of the case. OK, it was outside behind a dumpster, not a bedroom. And the woman had so much alcohol that she passed out and fell down? Where were her friends and why did they let this happen? How did Turner find her?
Turner was/is a sick individual. He apparently followed this intoxicated woman when she left the party. Or did they leave together or what? Please do tell me the facts. I have stated that what he did was absolutely wrong, but no one seems to have read that part. Turner does not deserve the lenient sentence he got, but he is still a person. He deserves punishment and rehabilitation. Or does he?
As for God, I am talking about Jesus. You all know I am a born again Christian, a hated minority here on AN and in the world. I personally have found that anyone here who dares to state their dissenting view about issues like abortion, homosexuality, and now rape is taken to task and crucified here.
To all who are so upset with me - I am studying up on rape being about power, not about sex, and studying the other issues you raise. I can be taught and I can learn, and I appreciate that you all have given me food for thought. Hopefully, we can learn from each other, if only to not jump down the throat of someone whose beliefs you do not share. Also, to read carefully and not pick out only the parts of a post you find disturbing, but to read the whole thing, like the parts that say Turner was wrong and that the girl's condition did not excuse his actions.
Do you want your kids to bring shame to your family? Is that a good thing? Do you want them playing with fire? Is it ok for them to get burned because they didn't use good judgment? Isn't it preferable to teach them self-control and moderation.
I forget who commented about the Amish, but that was a hateful statement. Where is your respect for Amish? It was a rude comment. Just because they are different from you, doesn't mean it's OK for you to ridicule them.
For the poster who wondered about rapes of children, nuns, old women in their own homes - these are things done by sick individuals and are, of course, absolutely wrong. The victims of these have done nothing wrong. I'm not sure why these things happen except that some people are very sick, sociopaths. And, no, being modest in dress and with regard to alcohol and where one goes would not have prevented these rapes. I don't know of any other answer as to why these things happen.
Why do people commit any crimes? Because they are sick, angry, short-sighted, drunk, high, some or all of these reasons? Or no real reason at all? Or???
I read your posts. I read them all more than once. You did indeed state that you raised your sons to "avoid accusations of rape," which is not the same thing as raising them to respect other human beings or to know that rape is wrong. You stated that more than once.
If you want to be informed of the facts of the case, I suggest you research the facts of the case. There is plenty of material online, and there is no excuse to jump into the fray and begin blaming the victim without knowing the facts of the case.
The problem I have with born again Christians isn't that your beliefs are different from mine or that many of you seem to believe women need more laws to define their behavior and control their bodies. The problem I have with born again Christians is that the majority of them I've met or conversed with online have the same fatal flaw as fundamentalist Muslims
Or fundamentalists of any ilk: you seem to believe that your way is the right way, the only way, and anyone who disagrees with you should be "brought into line." The founders of our country believed in the right to religious freedom, and yet the evangelical Christians seem to be trying to wrest this freedom from us, one law at a time. Trying to legislate morality -- YOUR morality.
We've read all parts of your posts, not just the parts that we disagree with. But when you say on the one hand that Brock Turner was to blame and then say that rape could be prevented if FEMALES wouldn't entice men, you clearly don't get it. You're still blaming the victim. I ought to be able to walk down the street stark naked, and the men I encountered would give me a blanket and call for help for me rather than rape me.
Being drunk or high is no excuse for raping someone, for murdering someone, for assault of any kind. Just no excuse. The only person responsible for a rape is the rapist. You still don't seem to get that.
As for God, I am talking about Jesus. You all know I am a born again Christian, a hated minority here on AN and in the world. I personally have found that anyone here who dares to state their dissenting view about issues like abortion, homosexuality, and now rape is taken to task and crucified here.
I think you're conflating the fact that you say insane and inflammatory things with the idea that people don't like Christians.
It's not Christians that people have a problem with.
For the poster who wondered about rapes of children, nuns, old women in their own homes - these are things done by sick individuals and are, of course, absolutely wrong. The victims of these have done nothing wrong. I'm not sure why these things happen except that some people are very sick, sociopaths. And, no, being modest in dress and with regard to alcohol and where one goes would not have prevented these rapes. I don't know of any other answer as to why these things happen.
Why, if you can understand that these groups of people could have in no way prevented being raped, can you not understand that the same applies to young beautiful women, no matter how they are dressed, wherever they are or if they are impaired?
Why, if you can understand that these groups of people could have in no way prevented being raped, can you not understand that the same applies to young beautiful women, no matter how they are dressed, wherever they are or if they are impaired?
I just don't get how this guy sees these as two different classes of rape.
macawake, MSN
2,141 Posts
Of course they are Ruby Vee. I mean, look closely at that picture... The woman in the center of it doesn't have her gaze averted demurely towards her feet. Looks like she's provocative enough to look straight ahead. And don't even get me started on the woman on the left.. That piece of cloth covering her face isn't neatly tucked in. I swear, if someone stood in front of her and were to bend down and peer upwards, they could probably see her nose!!! Complete lack of modesty on her part.
Point is, if someone wants to blame the woman, they'll find a way