I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Stanford rape trial and sentence on all nurses. I'm opening up the discussion as I feel it pertains to us in many ways. One as people who may have been victims or know others who have been victims of sexual violence and two as nurses that have taken care of others in this situation, whether directly in ER or a patient suffering from PTSD with other health problems as well.
I applaud the survivor's bravery and her impact statement that has gone public. I hope this will comfort other survivors, but even more I hope this will discourage rape in general. Campus rapes are common and rapes at frats are in the news frequently. Once again a college athlete got off with just a slap on the wrist, although I don't think he counted on all the negative publicity this case has garnered.
What disturbs me the most is the letters of the parents to the judge. The father's don't punish him for 20 minutes of action. Then the mother's letter, who by the way is a nurse for gynecological surgeries and in the past as a pediatric nurse, who had not one iota of empathy for the victim. Her letter simply astonished me. I can't believe as a woman, as a nurse, as a mother of a daughter she had no empathy for the victim! This troubles me the most! I imagine in her years as a nurse she must have taken care of a rape victim and her total lack of empathy for the victim disturbs me greatly!
I am maybe not the best at explaining what I mean, but I have stated, and you failed to see it or understand, that her condition does not excuse his behavior. But in general, rape and the like can be prevented if women behave more sensibly and conservatively and avoid getting drunk, and avoid going to places where they are more likely to run into men who don't respect women, and avoid going off alone with men. They are less likely to end up naked behind garbage dumpsters if they use some old-fashioned restraint, common sense and good judgment.
Holding this view does not make me strange. It actually makes me pretty darned sensible. And it is good advice for women who want to avoid rape and for men who want to avoid rape charges.
The world is haywire. Wanton excess and ridiculous extreme repression, such as you describe, are both wrong. There is a happy medium. I hope you can see it.
I was so blown away by your comment that I had to create a throwaway account. I needed to be able to respond without fear of outing myself and things that have happened to me by using a username that my real life friends may know. You see, I would hate for anyone I know in real life to believe that I deserved what happened to me, that I somehow did something bring it upon myself, like you apparently do.
The man who raped me (and I do not mean in the singular sense) was a man I loved. I did not "go off alone" with him, any more than you would accuse someone of "going off alone" with their husband. I wasn't behaving badly. I wasn't dressed inappropriately. The vast majority of time, I was wearing pajamas. No, nothing sexy like the latest from Victoria's Secret. Boxer shorts and a men's XL t-shirt, mostly. I've followed your advice, and believe me, it didn't matter. I didn't go to clubs. I didn't, and still don't, get drunk in public with men I don't know. My rape(s) took place in our bedroom, by someone I loved and trusted and had no reason to believe would hurt me in that way. I had no reason to exercise "restraint, common sense, and good judgment" because I had no reason to believe that I was in an unsafe situation. I guess I deserved the second, third, fourth ... times, because I didn't (couldn't, was terrified to) leave him. I guess I should have never found myself living with a man I loved, a man who promised to love and protect me in return. I should have behaved more "sensibly" and never gotten into a monogamous, adult relationship with someone I considered a friend long before we ever entered into a romantic partnership. I suppose I've learned my lesson now, because every relationship from that point on that I will ever have with another man will be affected by the things he did to me. I have no choice but to behave "sensibly" because I find it difficult, if not impossible, to trust another man to not hurt me in the ways that he did.
It seems like you think the vast majority of rapes are committed by men upon drunk women at bars? Nearly one in five women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. SEVENTY PERCENT of those assaults will be committed by someone known to the victim. You have a lot to learn about sexual assault... and you owe survivors like myself and the other posters on this board an apology. I have never spoken about this in public before but I refuse to remain silent while you sit here on your high horse and tell me what I should have done differently. Believe me, I've second guessed myself enough for two lifetimes.
Your view is that Brock Turner is solely at fault for forcing himself on the raped woman. And he may be.
So you expect that a woman may do the things we've been talking about here - and I don't know if she did them or not (excessive ETOH, showing off her body excessively, going off alone with Turner), but a man must remain totally self-controlled at all times.
Yes. That's exactly what I expect. I expect that, even if I'm parading naked down Main Street, a man show me the tiniest amount of respect and decency by NOT RAPING ME. That's exactly what I ******* expect.
What you say is true except for concluding that I think women "ask for it". And my ideas may very well be mainstream, we just have the media bombarding us with the really strange and wrong idea that it's ok to sleep with anyone and everyone.
I am maybe not the best at explaining what I mean, but I have stated, and you failed to see it or understand, that her condition does not excuse his behavior. But in general, rape and the like can be prevented if women behave more sensibly and conservatively and avoid getting drunk, and avoid going to places where they are more likely to run into men who don't respect women, and avoid going off alone with men. They are less likely to end up naked behind garbage dumpsters if they use some old-fashioned restraint, common sense and good judgment.
Holding this view does not make me strange. It actually makes me pretty darned sensible. And it is good advice for women who want to avoid rape and for men who want to avoid rape charges.
The world is haywire. Wanton excess and ridiculous extreme repression, such as you describe, are both wrong. There is a happy medium. I hope you can see it.
I think it's good to be sensible too, and take realistic precautions to protect ourselves. The problem is that we shouldn't have to. How we dress, how much we drink, where we go, how we act - none of those things have anything to do with rape. That's the point you seem to be missing. I didn't get raped because of what I wore. A person I knew didn't force himself on me because I was wearing tight jeans. He didn't put a gun to the side of my head because I went to his apartment. Had I changed any of those things, he would have done the same - perhaps at a different time, different place. Because rape isn't about sex. It's about power. And once he picked me, I was marked.
If a woman wants to dress modestly, it should be because that's how she feels best. Not because it's a sensible precaution against getting sexually assaulted. Every time we tell a woman what she should do to protect herself, we're reinforcing (perhaps unintentionally) the idea that what happens to her at the hands of a violent offender is, at least in part, her fault. This message isn't just being sent to women, it's also being sent to men. It's telling them that there are circumstances where their actions are not entirely their fault.
You make the argument that the media makes it seem that it's okay to sleep with anyone and everyone. It is okay for me to sleep with anyone and everyone, if that's what I want (I'm an old married lady now, so those days are over). Because it's my body and having lots of sexual partners doesn't make me more rape-able, or culpable in my own assault.
I understand that you were raised to think differently - I really do. I respect that it's hard to see things in different ways, when that's all we've ever known. The thing is - once we know better, we have to do better. We know that blaming victims for their assaults is very, very damaging. About 66% of rapes go unreported. That's because the mindset about victims hasn't shifted enough - because our actions continue to reinforce the outdated ideas that you're describing above.
We shouldn't be teaching women how to avoid rape. We should be teaching men not how to avoid rape charges, but how to just not rape.
Yes. That's exactly what I expect. I expect that, even if I'm parading naked down Main Street, a man show me the tiniest amount of respect and decency by NOT RAPING ME. That's exactly what I ******* expect.
Im not at all sure where the disconnect is on this issue.
I simply do not understand the "she's tempting all of these innocent boys into rape" mentality.
Oneinfive, what you've said here sounds over the top and crazy. But IT IS NOT.
If I said that men get a pass, that is not what I meant. I don't think I said it, but if I did, it is wrong and not what I meant.
Men need to be gentlemen and need to treat with women with the utmost courtesy and respect. Men must not take advantage of women in any way. I am not sexist, misogynistic, or judgmental, not cold or lacking in compassion, not a bigot, not a parrot.
I have raised sons to be highly aware that they are open to rape charges if they misstep. I have raised daughters who know not to be immodest in dress, not to drink to the point where they are not in control of themselves, not pair off and leave friends in a different room, and not go, in the first place. to events where the chance of sexual activity (desired or not) is high.
Your view is that Brock Turner is solely at fault for forcing himself on the raped woman. And he may be.
So you expect that a woman may do the things we've been talking about here - and I don't know if she did them or not (excessive ETOH, showing off her body excessively, going off alone with Turner), but a man must remain totally self-controlled at all times. Sounds like the double standard has been turned around.
People need to just go bowling or to a dance, a movie, somewhere public or semi-public, or have some chaperones to look out for them. Yes chaperones, even college students. They should behave conservatively in all regards, and not lose self-control. And they should keep an eye on their friends, male and female.
OK, laugh at me and flame away.
KK, Old Fashioned Dude
Bold: Mine
If we can reasonably expect people not to steal things, or murder other people - why would this be any different?
This is simply infuriating. Every time I try to calm down about this, I can't.
WHY are people acting like this person is deserving of mercy? Did he show the victim mercy? Do you think he stopped before he violated an unconscious woman and thought "I wonder if this is going to cause her to become 'deeply depressed and full of despair.' I wonder if she is going to become a 'shell of her former self' after I penetrate her against her will."
My guess would be no. I think his only concern was his own despicable desire to assault a woman too drunk to say yes. Or no, for that matter. So why are his parents (and others) insisting he be shown the mercy he so violently denied the victim? Why should he be treated "fairly" for committing a crime so deeply unfair?
I am not a mother. I can't imagine the anguish a parent must feel with their child guilty of such a heinous act. Knowing your son has done something so terrible and knowing the (far too lenient) punishment he is faced with must be horrible for a parent. But that does NOT give this mother an excuse to belittle the suffering of the victim and ask for mercy that is not deserved. Spending time with an old lady, being a good swimmer, poorly portraying a bad guy in a play--- these are not enough "good deeds" to cancel out what he did to that girl. There are plenty of men who do nice things for people WITHOUT committing rape. That's not a call for leniency; that's called being a decent human being. Which this rapist most certainly is not. And he isn't worthy of being treated as such.
From Glen Ridge, NJ to Duke lacrosse and now Stanford, the idea of blaming the victim and excessive leniency for "promising" rapists is terrifying, offensive and dangerous. It scares me and it makes me scared for every woman I know and women I don't know. I fear for my future children. I fear for my students as I watch them move out into the world, knowing the culture surrounding rape and sexual assault in this country.
Enough horrible things happen in this world that we as a society have no control over. We can't stop an extremist from murdering people in a night club. We can't stop the development of deadly diseases and we can't stop the atrocities of war. What we CAN do is stop teaching our society that rape is okay. We can stop sending the message that athletic ability, prior community service and being a "loving son" is enough to negate violating a vulnerable woman. We can stop scaring girls and women away from drinking at a party, going out with friends and walking to their cars alone because of the risks they are "bringing upon themselves" and the subsequent blame they will face if something happens to them. The time to address this is now. It's been going on far too long.
It's been one of those weeks, kids. I'm weary of the world and all the awful things in it. My heart hurts.
Quote of the century!!!!!!!!! My sentiments exactly! As a 21 year old college student I am horrified by some of these comments, some of these mothers, parents, women, nurses, human beings.
I guess if I ever get raped no matter what I do I will always be blamed and shamed. No wonder victims and survivors rarely speak out and talk about their experiences.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
What you say is true except for concluding that I think women "ask for it". And my ideas may very well be mainstream, we just have the media bombarding us with the really strange and wrong idea that it's ok to sleep with anyone and everyone.
I am maybe not the best at explaining what I mean, but I have stated, and you failed to see it or understand, that her condition does not excuse his behavior. But in general, rape and the like can be prevented if women behave more sensibly and conservatively and avoid getting drunk, and avoid going to places where they are more likely to run into men who don't respect women, and avoid going off alone with men. They are less likely to end up naked behind garbage dumpsters if they use some old-fashioned restraint, common sense and good judgment.
Holding this view does not make me strange. It actually makes me pretty darned sensible. And it is good advice for women who want to avoid rape and for men who want to avoid rape charges.
The world is haywire. Wanton excess and ridiculous extreme repression, such as you describe, are both wrong. There is a happy medium. I hope you can see it.
Where would you suggest that women go to avoid running into men who don't respect women? Church isn't safe or we wouldn't have all those "Godly Fundamentalist Ministers" having affairs with the choir director, raping the pianist or propositioning other men in men's bathrooms. Not even Catholic Church is safe, although it's probably more dangerous to children than to women. The supermarket isn't safe =- there are all kinds of men there. Someone tried to assault me once at the Public Library, so that's not a safe place. Even my own home, which should be safe, isn't. I woke up one afternoon after a night shift to see the landlord standing over my bed with his hand on his genitals.
There is nothing sensible about your viewpoint. And I would suggest (again) that men who want to avoid rape charges simply avoid raping anyone. It seems sensible to me to keep your member in your pants until the issue of consent is firmly established in the affirmative.
But in general, rape and the like can be prevented if women behave more sensibly and conservatively and avoid getting drunk, and avoid going to places where they are more likely to run into men who don't respect women, and avoid going off alone with men.
I see that you are quite comfortably ignoring tons of available criminological research in order to convince yourself that adhering to your own personal moral beliefs actually has a bearing on criminal activity. You're wrong. The majority of rapes aren't even committed by men who are strangers or even new acquaintances. Most women who get raped get raped by a boyfriend, husband, ex-boyfriend or ex-husband.
Reading the above quote I can't fathom how you manage to convince yourself that you don't assign at least partial blame to the rape victim.
You know, when I say that no woman, man or child should ever be raped and no one ever deserves being raped, I don't find it necessary to add on a "but" or some other qualifier at the end of the statement.
They are less likely to end up naked behind garbage dumpsters if they use some old-fashioned restraint, common sense and good judgment.
That's one of the most cold comments that I've ever seen on AN. You say that you don't lack compassion but the above comment gives me the chills. You do understand that what you are describing is something that recently happened to a real, live breathing human being??? Have you listened to what the young woman said about her feelings and how her life has changed after the attack? Can you imagine what hearing your words would do to her? I think that they have the capacity to cut through her soul and mind like knives.
To me, you sound flippant. Don't get drunk, don't go off with a man = Don't end up naked behind a dumpster. What a neat little solution.
And you are still maintaining that you're not blaming the victim?
If I said that men get a pass, that is not what I meant. I don't think I said it, but if I did, it is wrong and not what I meant.
There is such a thing as saying or conveying something through omission. You've spent many posts describing how you think girls and women should look and behave. You been markedly silent about how boys and men should dress, behave, in what kind of events outside of their homes it is appropriate that they participate in. Don't you see the message you're sending?
I have raised sons to be highly aware that they are open to rape charges if they misstep.
What does this mean? What do you mean by misstep? They'd be open to rape charges if they actually raped someone. Other than that, false rape allegations don't happen very often at all. But I'm willing to bet, without I admit having looked at the research, that it's more likely to happen in a culture where women are judged harshly for having pre-marital sex.
I just think how to avoid rape accusations is an odd thing to teach one's sons. Teach them respect for the autonomy and integrity of all other human beings and I think that they'll be fine.
The world is haywire. Wanton excess and ridiculous extreme repression, such as you describe, are both wrong.
I have a feeling that your definition of wanton excess might differ slightly from mine. But it's a moot point, because even crime victims who lead a life in "wanton excess" deserve our compassion.
OK, laugh at me and flame away.
Believe me, I'm not laughing. Your words make me angry and sad. As much as I don't want to, I remember the look in the eyes of the many rape victims I've met and interviewed. I can still hear their words. I remember reviewing forensic evidence and pictures of bruises and other injuries sustained during the attacks. To think that even one victim will be afraid to seek help or report that she's been attacked because they didn't live up to some person's idea of morality, is heart-breaking and infuriating at the same time.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
If I said that men get a pass, that is not what I meant. I don't think I said it, but if I did, it is wrong and not what I meant.
Men need to be gentlemen and need to treat with women with the utmost courtesy and respect. Men must not take advantage of women in any way. I am not sexist, misogynistic, or judgmental, not cold or lacking in compassion, not a bigot, not a parrot.
I have raised sons to be highly aware that they are open to rape charges if they misstep. I have raised daughters who know not to be immodest in dress, not to drink to the point where they are not in control of themselves, not pair off and leave friends in a different room, and not go, in the first place. to events where the chance of sexual activity (desired or not) is high.
Your view is that Brock Turner is solely at fault for forcing himself on the raped woman. And he may be.
So you expect that a woman may do the things we've been talking about here - and I don't know if she did them or not (excessive ETOH, showing off her body excessively, going off alone with Turner), but a man must remain totally self-controlled at all times. Sounds like the double standard has been turned around.
People need to just go bowling or to a dance, a movie, somewhere public or semi-public, or have some chaperones to look out for them. Yes chaperones, even college students. They should behave conservatively in all regards, and not lose self-control. And they should keep an eye on their friends, male and female.
OK, laugh at me and flame away.
KK, Old Fashioned Dude
OK, you're a Dude. That explains a lot.
Every single rape that has ever occurred has one thing in common. It isn't women dressing immodestly, showing off their bodies, going off alone with the wrong man or drinking too much. The thing that every single rape has in common is a rapist. Brock is a rapist. The man that broke into the home of a seventy year old nun, raped her and stole her computer is a rapist AND a thief. The man that raped his four modestly dressed sisters who were minding their own business in their own beds at the time is a rapist. (I don't know if Josh Duggar actually raped anyone, or "merely" molested them. A good friend of mine and all of her sisters were raped by her oldest brother who would sneak into their bedrooms at night, after they were asleep. It was a Christian family, the girls all dressed modestly.)
I don't know you in real life. But from what you've written just on this thread, I would conclude that you ARE sexist, judgmental and misogynistic.
And there it is; the perfect argument stated clearly and succinctly. Why should this be any different?
Wait, didn't you guys hear? Men are biologically pre-wired to rape, they have to watch out for each other so they don't "misstep." But really, if women would just dress like the Amish, rape wouldn't exist.
To all of the rape survivors on this thread, I'm really sorry you're being exposed to this disgusting individual's rationales, thinly disguised under the excuse of being unapologetically "old-fashioned."
Where would you suggest that women go to avoid running into men who don't respect women? Church isn't safe or we wouldn't have all those "Godly Fundamentalist Ministers" having affairs with the choir director, raping the pianist or propositioning other men in men's bathrooms. Not even Catholic Church is safe, although it's probably more dangerous to children than to women. The supermarket isn't safe =- there are all kinds of men there. Someone tried to assault me once at the Public Library, so that's not a safe place. Even my own home, which should be safe, isn't. I woke up one afternoon after a night shift to see the landlord standing over my bed with his hand on his genitals.
There is nothing sensible about your viewpoint. And I would suggest (again) that men who want to avoid rape charges simply avoid raping anyone. It seems sensible to me to keep your member in your pants until the issue of consent is firmly established in the affirmative.
Just over a year ago (thanks for the "memories," Facebook!) a man threatened to kill me in a gas station parking lot. He followed me into the building and yelled at me as I stood halfway behind the counter and asked the attendant to call the police. I wasn't able to get back into my car to lock myself in and use my own phone, but I guess that's my fault for not being careful enough, huh? There were some hefty fellas inside who made sure he didn't come near me, and that I got safely back to my car. THOSE were good men. They weren't worried about all those false accusations imaginary women might make against innocent panhandlers. I haven't left home without pepper spray since. I guess I'm not allowed to use a car, either, in order to keep from, like, shaming my family.
oneinfivewomen
2 Posts
I was so blown away by your comment that I had to create a throwaway account. I needed to be able to respond without fear of outing myself and things that have happened to me by using a username that my real life friends may know. You see, I would hate for anyone I know in real life to believe that I deserved what happened to me, that I somehow did something bring it upon myself, like you apparently do.
The man who raped me (and I do not mean in the singular sense) was a man I loved. I did not "go off alone" with him, any more than you would accuse someone of "going off alone" with their husband. I wasn't behaving badly. I wasn't dressed inappropriately. The vast majority of time, I was wearing pajamas. No, nothing sexy like the latest from Victoria's Secret. Boxer shorts and a men's XL t-shirt, mostly. I've followed your advice, and believe me, it didn't matter. I didn't go to clubs. I didn't, and still don't, get drunk in public with men I don't know. My rape(s) took place in our bedroom, by someone I loved and trusted and had no reason to believe would hurt me in that way. I had no reason to exercise "restraint, common sense, and good judgment" because I had no reason to believe that I was in an unsafe situation. I guess I deserved the second, third, fourth ... times, because I didn't (couldn't, was terrified to) leave him. I guess I should have never found myself living with a man I loved, a man who promised to love and protect me in return. I should have behaved more "sensibly" and never gotten into a monogamous, adult relationship with someone I considered a friend long before we ever entered into a romantic partnership. I suppose I've learned my lesson now, because every relationship from that point on that I will ever have with another man will be affected by the things he did to me. I have no choice but to behave "sensibly" because I find it difficult, if not impossible, to trust another man to not hurt me in the ways that he did.
It seems like you think the vast majority of rapes are committed by men upon drunk women at bars? Nearly one in five women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. SEVENTY PERCENT of those assaults will be committed by someone known to the victim. You have a lot to learn about sexual assault... and you owe survivors like myself and the other posters on this board an apology. I have never spoken about this in public before but I refuse to remain silent while you sit here on your high horse and tell me what I should have done differently. Believe me, I've second guessed myself enough for two lifetimes.