I'm surprised there has been no mention of the Stanford rape trial and sentence on all nurses. I'm opening up the discussion as I feel it pertains to us in many ways. One as people who may have been victims or know others who have been victims of sexual violence and two as nurses that have taken care of others in this situation, whether directly in ER or a patient suffering from PTSD with other health problems as well.
I applaud the survivor's bravery and her impact statement that has gone public. I hope this will comfort other survivors, but even more I hope this will discourage rape in general. Campus rapes are common and rapes at frats are in the news frequently. Once again a college athlete got off with just a slap on the wrist, although I don't think he counted on all the negative publicity this case has garnered.
What disturbs me the most is the letters of the parents to the judge. The father's don't punish him for 20 minutes of action. Then the mother's letter, who by the way is a nurse for gynecological surgeries and in the past as a pediatric nurse, who had not one iota of empathy for the victim. Her letter simply astonished me. I can't believe as a woman, as a nurse, as a mother of a daughter she had no empathy for the victim! This troubles me the most! I imagine in her years as a nurse she must have taken care of a rape victim and her total lack of empathy for the victim disturbs me greatly!
I think you have created fictional details that were not described by any poster in this thread. Even so, if you are addressing ONE victim out of the many as not at fault, do not be surprised when your hateful words are rejected by everyone here.
It's ironic that I posted a reply (reminded of an old statement by another person's reference to Amish modesty and the fact that it does not prevent assault - which you find offensive) to your "God first" line from a while back, then deleted it because I didn't want to get into religious flaming. And here you are making it about religion again.
So I'll do my best to recreate what I originally wrote.
The great kings of the Old Testament had hundreds of both wives and concubines (aka breeders/**** toys) including David, the "man after God's own heart himself" - who, by the way, peeped on a woman bathing, violated her, then had her husband murdered so he could keep her. It wasn't uncommon for a man to have multiple wives, even just a Joe Schmoe kind of guy. It wasn't men who had to remain faithful and pure, it was women - so I don't find it surprising that you hide behind religion. Deuteronomy 22 explicitly states that a rape victim who doesn't cry out during an assault in a populated area should be stoned to death along with her attacker, so again, you are displaying VERY old-fashioned "Christian" values when you say victims are responsible for their assaults.
I say these things as a Christian, so the religious martyr card won't work with me.
You barged into a discussion about the Stanford rape, and the strongest words you have against the perpetrator, who was convicted of three felonies by the evidence in a court of law (but you don't know what actually happened and don't care to find out) are that the victim MAY not have been to blame.
You have decided in your own mind how the world works and are quite impervious when others try to orient you to reality. You're considering that maybe rape isn't sex isn't rape? I hope you keep going with that thought, but I'm singularly unimpressed. You clearly have not read the research I have linked. What it shows is that men will admit to a whole lot of rape if you don't call it the R word. Even earlier posters here have claimed that "rape" and "nonconsensual sex" (which is literally the definition of rape) are not the same thing. When you fuss that we are picking apart your posts, choosing only the things we want to hear, the reality is that we are summing up your attitudes and beliefs - which are readily apparent - using words you don't like.
You believe women can be to blame for their rape, and they have a responsibility not to lure innocent boys into raping them, but you don't like the word misogynist. You balk at the phrase "asking for it" but you can't seem to stop talking about women dressing provocatively and drinking too much as CAUSES for rape.
We're literally mirroring back the exact sentiments you have expressed, but you protest when the ideas don't sound quite as sensible when reframed in our own words and experiences.
Your ignorance is not worth another discussion, not worth going back and finding your very own words to disprove again and again and again. You don't care about women, you certainly don't care about rape, and it is not worth my time. You think you're getting "flamed" but if you look at the tone of posts throughout this thread, I think I (and pretty much everyone here) have been EXTRAORDINARILY even-tempered in response to the nonsense. I'm done.
It's time for me to go figure out how to block specific accounts by name again, because I've had enough of this ish.
God punished David. He killed the baby born to David and Bathsheba.
You reference the Old Testament on rape. That was the Jewish root of Christianity, but Jesus the Christ (Messiah, Savior)and Christianity had not yet arrived. There is a new testament. That's the one about Christianity. You know Jesus did not condemn the woman taken in adultery. What makes you think he'd condemn a woman who is raped? Would he say she deserved to be raped, even if she wasn't being wise in some of her choices - And maybe she was and maybe she wasn't?
Neither have I said that anyone DESERVES to be raped. I merely stated that we need to use wisdom and good sense. Some, like you, saw that as a bull sees the red cape of the matador. They have read the worst into what I wrote and have assumed the worst about me.
As for advising sons to avoid certain situations - if one isn't in certain settings, one is less likely to find himself accused of rape or other terrible things. Macawake read evil intent into that. Absolutely nothing bad was meant by it, and it is not wrong to advise our kids to avoid trouble. That is a parent's responsibility. We should teach them to live honorably in all regards and teach them that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
The details you think are fictional are not. One person here, I think Rose Queen, I apologize if I have the wrong person, told of being molested at age 8. I was responding to her.
I didn't barge in any more than anyone else. Just because you don't like what I say doesn't mean I barged in. As I understand AN, it is a place where, at least in theory, all nurses can participate. For some, though, it is a place where only certain opinions are welcome and anyone who is dumb enough to think otherwise will find out quickly that there is plenty of intolerance from those who want others to tolerate them.
For me, anyone can say what they honestly think. I guess it's because I have received enough hard knocks already. I have learned to just keep going, whether someone likes me or not, likes what I say or not. I have to do what I have to do. So do you. So don't give me power to upset you. Just figure I'm an awful person and move on. No one wins in an argument like this. Calm discussion is necessary, reason, not hate and anger.
I had to take care of some things today, therefore have not had a chance yet to study all the statistics and studies people have referred to. But I plan to do so, so be patient.
Don't we each decide in our own mind how the world works and how we are to live? Don't you? You are simply wrong that I don't care about women or rape. I have women in my life, too, and would die for them if need be. You seem as impervious as you say I am.
To OP, my take on it is how would you feel if it is your kid? Most people do not want to say their kid is a rapist. Most don't want to admit it. Sort of denial. I remember reading on a message board about the father's letter and someone pointed out exactly what should he say? My kid is a piece of ****? Send him to jail for many years?
What's wrong with the death penalty for violent criminals, predators?
You seem hell-bent on bringing off-topic subjects into this thread. My reply was to the poster who wished that the convicted sex offender get raped in jail, we weren't discussing the death penalty. I'm not a moderator and have no sway here, but I still ask you to kindly start a new thread if you wish to debate any other off-topic matters.
You ask what's wrong with the death penalty.
1) As a criminologist I can tell you that it doesn't have a deterrent effect.
2) It's not worthy of a civilized society.
3) It's the one punishment that society/the state can't at least attempt to make amends for/compensate a person who is later found to have been wrongfully convicted.
You do realize that your country has executed human beings who were subsequently found innocent of the crime they were convicted of, right?
Do you remember the countries that George W. Bush named the axis of evil? Well, you seem to have a real hankering for emulating these countries' judicial systems.
Has it escaped you attention that almost the entire Western world has abolished capital punishment?
So who do you want to be like? Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and China? Or does Canada, Norway, The Netherlands, Australia and the UK sound more palatable?
I would sincerely hope that it's the latter.
Both you and I live in modern and relatively enlightened societies. This yearning for a repressive, punitive and cruel justice system is in my opinion a step back towards the Dark Ages.
Good grief, Kooky. Why in the world would you make all of your inflammatory comments without even had read the details of the case? Where is your sensibility? You've come across as ignorant by the mere fact that as a licensed nurse with some type of science based degree you didn't even read the how the whole thing went down.
You sound foolish and I'm sure lost credibility with pretty much everyone.
And please leave your "Christianity" out of it. Your views aren't coming from well understood teachings of Jesus. You do harm to the public image of Christianity, you aren't walking in the image of Christ. Yeah, we know there are safety precautions that might reduce one's risk of harm. Duh, but not even remotely the point.
Ruby, I have indeed taught my sons to respect women and all people. Re-read my post. They are well aware that sex belongs in marriage and needs to be consensual at all times, and that sex is beautiful when used as God intended - in marriage for enjoyment, for procreation - one man and one woman in marriage. Now i will hear from the LGBT crowd what an evil person I am. It's definitely not safe here to hold a different viewpoint.
I stated that I didn't know the facts of the case. OK, it was outside behind a dumpster, not a bedroom. And the woman had so much alcohol that she passed out and fell down? Where were her friends and why did they let this happen? How did Turner find her?
Turner was/is a sick individual. He apparently followed this intoxicated woman when she left the party. Or did they leave together or what? Please do tell me the facts. I have stated that what he did was absolutely wrong, but no one seems to have read that part. Turner does not deserve the lenient sentence he got, but he is still a person. He deserves punishment and rehabilitation. Or does he?
As for God, I am talking about Jesus. You all know I am a born again Christian, a hated minority here on AN and in the world. I personally have found that anyone here who dares to state their dissenting view about issues like abortion, homosexuality, and now rape is taken to task and crucified here.
I did not say that God blamed the victim. Never said that. I believe God wants us to follow some basic morality, like the Ten Commandments. These lay a good foundation for a just society. And Jesus would not condemn a victim. He wants us, I believe, to take responsibility for ourselves and to accept His love - but it is not a love that doesn't require work on our part. He shed His blood to pay for our sins and gives us salvation as a gift. We are expected, in return, to present ourselves as a living sacrifice to advance the purpose of making His love known to all people and to represent God as loving and holy. He tells us to be holy because He is holy. Doesn't that include using wisdom?
I said it but it got missed by most of you - I do NOT think the burkah and hijab and acid in the face and genital mutilation of females are the answer. I said that neither totally running outside the basic moral foundation mentioned above nor making women property and 2nd class non-persons is right.
Rape in marriage or in a live-in arrangement believed to be stable - rape certainly can happen in these conditions. Fear of leaving dangerous domestic relationships - understandable and a well-known fact. Still, the poster who told of this situation did manage to get out and I applaud that wholeheartedly. I hope she is alright and never has to go through anything like that again. Same with other victims of crime who shared here - like the poster who had a gun put to her head. I am totally sympathetic to you. I was mugged myself, my life threatened with a gun, kicked and punched, feared for my life. I know how that feels. Could I have avoided it? Yes. I was out late one night, bad part of town, wife told me I should take my walks elsewhere. I knew better, didn't listen. My fault? Well, you decide. I don't walk in bad neighborhoods any more.
To all who are so upset with me - I am reviewing rape being about power, not about sex, and studying the other issues you raise. I can be taught and I can learn, and I appreciate that you all have given me food for thought. Hopefully, we can learn from each other, if only to read carefully and not pick out only the parts of a post you find disturbing, but to read the whole thing, like the parts that say Turner was wrong and that the girl's condition did not excuse his actions. You did see that, right?
Do you want your kids to bring shame to your family? Is that a good thing? Do you want them playing with fire? Is it ok for them to get burned because they didn't use good judgment? Isn't it preferable to teach them self-control and moderation in the first place? And to let them know that they are part of you, they share your name, and your family has a proud tradition of being decent people? What is wrong with that? With letting a kid know that you are counting on him or her to uphold and carry on that tradition? Not that you will hate them or disown them if they are not honorable people, but that it will pain you and their other relatives greatly if they turn out to be criminals? And that it is because they belong to, they are part of, they are members of, they fit in with your family? Orphans don't necessarily get that gift of belonging. But your family knows and treasures its own.
I forget who commented about the Amish, but that was a hateful statement. Where is your respect for Amish? It was a rude comment. Just because they are different from you, doesn't mean it's OK for you to ridicule them.
For the poster who wondered about rapes of children, nuns, old women in their own homes - these are things done by sick individuals and are, of course, absolutely wrong. The victims of these have done nothing wrong. I'm not sure why these things happen except that some people are very sick, sociopaths. And, no, being modest in dress and with regard to alcohol and where one goes would not have prevented these rapes. I don't know of any other answer as to why these things happen.
Why do people commit any crimes? Because they are sick, angry, short-sighted, drunk, high, some or all of these reasons? Or no real reason at all? Or???
And I don't think walking in a "bad neighborhood" is asking to get mugged any more than walking in a "good neighborhood" is. OMG- does that mean that poor people deserve to be victims because they can't afford a 'better' place to live??
I think you should just shut your trap, seriously.
I worked as a hospice nurse, many of my patients were in high crime neighborhoods. I never once let that deter me from getting out of my car, walking up to that door and giving that person good care. I never once felt in danger, either. Some of us see people when we''re out in public, not clothing, skin color or social economic class.
Newsflash for you- you can be a victim in your own, nice safe Christian neighborhood and home. Being in a 'good neighborhood', wearing 'proper' clothing does not protect you from violent criminals.
Seriously... You win comment of the century award!! There's loads of great comments on here but yours hit the nail right on the head.
I just don't have energy for this guy. According to him, some rapes are okay and are the victims/survivors fault and some rapes are terrible..... All rapes are terrible! None are the victims/survivors fault.
Now being from "a bad neighborhood" is the only way to get mugged just like being a "loose, unladylike, insensible" woman gets you raped.... Sigh
I wonder how he feels about men who get rape. Do they bring it upon themselves as well or are they complete innocents who are different stories?
You seem hell-bent on bringing off-topic subjects into this thread. My reply was to the poster who wished that the convicted sex offender get raped in jail, we weren't discussing the death penalty. I'm not a moderator and have no sway here, but I still ask you to kindly start a new thread if you wish to debate any other off-topic matters.
You ask what's wrong with the death penalty.
1) As a criminologist I can tell you that it doesn't have a deterrent effect.
2) It's not worthy of a civilized society.
3) It's the one punishment that society/the state can't at least attempt to make amends for/compensate a person who is later found to have been wrongfully convicted.
You do realize that your country has executed human beings who were subsequently found innocent of the crime they were convicted of, right?
Do you remember the countries that George W. Bush named the axis of evil? Well, you seem to have a real hankering for emulating these countries' judicial systems.
Has it escaped you attention that almost the entire Western world has abolished capital punishment?
So who do you want to be like? Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and China? Or does Canada, Norway, The Netherlands, Australia and the UK sound more palatable?
I would sincerely hope that it's the latter.
Both you and I live in modern and relatively enlightened societies. This yearning for a repressive, punitive and cruel justice system is in my opinion a step back towards the Dark Ages.
You are the one who was discussing penalties for Turner and I responded to you. How is that off topic?
I know there are problems with the death penalty. But a few months in jail is too little for Turner and 14 years in state prison most likely won't cure him and will only cost the taxpayers money.
I think it is not unreasonable to gravely punish violent predators, those who do bodily harm to others, who seriously, gravely psychologically mess up their victims. The death penalty does that and can give closure to the victims and their families and friends and to society as a whole.
OK, you have your opinion and I have mine. They differ. The world still goes around. And just because almost the entire Western world has abolished capital punishment does not mean it has to be that way or should be that way. You have lived long enough, I guess, to know that beliefs, trends, fashion, mores, customs, laws change. They come and go and come back again and go again, and so on.
The Manson family and Manson himself should have been executed instead of being put in prison for the past 30+ years. How much has that cost the taxpayers of California? And Parole hearings attended every time by Sharon Tate's sister? How much time and money and energy has she spent on going to these hearings to make sure they all stay incarcerated? What kind of life is that for her?
Seriously... You win comment of the century award!! There's loads of great comments on here but yours hit the nail right on the head.
I just don't have energy for this guy. According to him, some rapes are okay and are the victims/survivors fault and some rapes are terrible..... All rapes are terrible! None are the victims/survivors fault.
Now being from "a bad neighborhood" is the only way to get mugged just like being a "loose, unladylike, insensible" woman gets you raped.... Sigh
I wonder how he feels about men who get rape. Do they bring it upon themselves as well or are they complete innocents who are different stories?
When did I ever say that some rapes are OK?
When did I say "being from a bad neighborhood is the only way to get mugged"?
My point was and is that behaving sensibly can help prevent some rapes. I have been informed here and have duly noted that this doesn't necessarily always prevent trouble. Of course it doesn't.
Men who get raped are just as damaged as women who are raped. I have had them as patients in jail. Guess what my boss told me was the treatment regimen when I asked (when I encountered my first male reporting he'd been raped and didn't know what to do exactly). "Nothing".
The law enforcement agency that ran the jail where I worked did not provide a rape kit/ER procedure, no screening for STD' or even HIV. No psychological care. NOTHING. I was sickened and appalled. They might have been convicted of some awful crime, but how are they going to become useful, rehabilitated members of society when they are savaged and treated like pig slop? I think jails and prisons should be sued by these victims for forcing them to be there but not keeping them safe. Now you know how I feel about that.
Inmates and prisoners who get raped in custody are either "soft", that is, they look young and vulnerable - like Brock Turner, or they accept an offer to be some other inmate's "*****" and get the benefit of being protected by that bigger,stronger inmate, or they are known/suspected to be "baby rapers" and rapers of women. Men in jail have wives, mothers, daughters, and other females they love and respect and care about. They tend not to like the rapists and molesters and monstrous violators too well and mete out punishment on their own terms often enough. Shivs, mop handles, fists and feet, and sometimes their memberes. You've heard of jailhouse justice? That's an example of it.
"Soft" is the term used by officers at that jail, not my term.
Good grief, Kooky. Why in the world would you make all of your inflammatory comments without even had read the details of the case? Where is your sensibility? You've come across as ignorant by the mere fact that as a licensed nurse with some type of science based degree you didn't even read the how the whole thing went down.
You sound foolish and I'm sure lost credibility with pretty much everyone.
And please leave your "Christianity" out of it. Your views aren't coming from well understood teachings of Jesus. You do harm to the public image of Christianity, you aren't walking in the image of Christ. Yeah, we know there are safety precautions that might reduce one's risk of harm. Duh, but not even remotely the point.
Well, Libby, you have just voiced that there are safety precautions that might reduce one's risk of harm. Watch out for backlash because I got backlash when I said the same thing.
Let's here what your view is of Christianity. How well do you understand it? Just how is it that I am not walking in what you believe is the image of Christ and how am I harming the public image of Christianity?
I had read Turner's mother's and father's letters and knew about the judge's sentence and the uproar that followed it. I had trouble locating the victim's letter until last night, when I read it in its entirety. I have only read part of Brock's. I stated up front, though, that I wasn't familiar with all of the facts.
Just to let you know - the defense attorney should be horsewhipped. I know he was just doing his job of providing what he believed was a vigorous defense for his client, but it savaged the victim so unnecessarily. Pure evil. But that is our justice system - protection of the defendant's rights is paramount. I am glad that the jury didn't buy into the attorney's evil bombardment of the victim.
Seems like inflammatory comments are inflammatory only if someone disagrees with them.
You justsaid the same thing I did!!!!! And you are imposing your views now on me. But it's ok, we're on a more or less public board and you have the right to speak your mind.
:banghead: 
Kooky Korky, BSN, RN
5,216 Posts
What's wrong with the death penalty for violent criminals, predators?