Now that the Covid 19 vaccine is just around the corner... Will it be mandatory?

NursePelican, ASN, BSN, LPN · Dec 5, 2020

On 11/30/2020 at 8:43 AM, Jack Peace said:

Get off your high horse. That kind of comment isn't helping anything except your ego. If vaccines are such "evidence based" then why did congress give vaccine manufacturers exemption from liability for injuries and reactions in the 1980s? Let's see, which vaccine has resulted in the most payouts from taxpayers out of the vaccine injury program ..... By far the influenza vaccine year after year. But you are smart , so you already know all of this..

NursePelican, ASN, BSN, LPN · Dec 5, 2020

I have been pretty silent on here, but... I just love reading the posts that say things like " start adulting" or "unless this has happened to you" . These are often the same who spew "it only takes once" or "what about the one time/person". Kind of contradicting if you think about it, isn't it?

We, as nurses have a duty to advocate for our patients but forget to advocate for ourselves. We have rights to see how this plays out and how the science changes.

Look at how they have flip flopped already with the entire Covid-19 virus from the beginning. Things literally change daily. As nurses, who claim to be evidenced based, seem to be practicing on the fly with this. Take a break folks ... and yes, come down off your high horse. What's the first rule in nursing? All the letters behind your name don't help you pump a chest or wipe a butt any better. Let someone else pat you on your back. It feels better that way.

MunoRN, RN · Dec 5, 2020

6 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

It is completely sane to say hey, I would like to first wait for the volunteers or people who *want* to take the vaccine now, allow for a widespread use, data collection, time etc. prior to being a volunteer myself.

I am willing to care for the sick and contagious, and wear proper PPE to keep myself and my patients safe. But you cannot and will not tell me what medications, procedures, treatments, inoculations etc. I am required to take.

Sure you can make it a stipulation of employment, and I have the choice to find a different employer who has different policies. But I am not a bad nurse or a hazard to my community because I want more use and data prior to being the first in line to try a new vaccine. This concept of nursing martyrdom must stop.

There are plenty of people who want the vaccine now and they are willing to be first in line. I do my part my caring for the sick, I keep myself and my patients safe by adhering to proper PPE protocols. that is the only thing I signed up for. I feel no guilt or responsibility to being a test subject, and these radical insane minded individuals who believe forced mass inoculation is the only solution aren’t going to socially bully me to feel any differently on this matter.

I am so incredibly sick of these types of people acting like all new vaccines are guaranteed to be safe and your uneducated or paranoid otherwise.

This is a good article written by a credible medical research professor that can explain reasons for not wanting to be first in line to try this vaccine. It’s a personal decision and healthcare workers are divided in how they feel about it and for real, science-based reasons.

”Aside from questions of safety that attend any vaccine, there are good reasons to be especially cautious for COVID-19. Some vaccines worsen the consequences of infection rather than protect, a phenomenon called antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). ADE has been observed in previous attempts to develop coronavirus vaccines. To add to the concern, antibodies typical of ADE are present in the blood of some COVID-19 patients. Such concerns are real. As recently as 2016, Dengavxia, intended to protect children from the dengue virus, increased hospitalizations for children who received the vaccine.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risks-of-rushing-a-covid-19-vaccine/

I don’t know about where you all work, but where I work there is an extreme nursing shortage and people are fleeing the bedside or fleeing for higher paying jobs and travel assignments. We are historically short staffed. If they were to make the vaccine mandatory, half of the nurses would quit.

So... I think it’s safe to say mandated vaccine policies will not last long.

While there is some protection provided by PPE in terms of preventing transmission of Covid, it's relatively small compared to that provided by vaccination.

You're of course free to choose not to take the vaccine, but I'm not sure why you then feel you should still be able to be in a role where there's such a high risk to those you may transmit the virus to if you chose not take the most effective available measure to protect them.

macawake, MSN · Dec 5, 2020

20 minutes ago, NursePelican said:

I have been pretty silent on here, but... I just love reading the posts that say things like " start adulting" or "unless this has happened to you" . These are often the same who spew "it only takes once" or "what about the one time/person". Kind of contradicting if you think about it, isn't it?

Okay. I’ve thought about it. But I can’t say that I understand the point you want to make. Who has said these things? Or rather ”spewed it” in your vernacular. In what context? I recognize the ”start adulting” wording from this thread, but that’s about it.

24 minutes ago, NursePelican said:

As nurses, who claim to be evidenced based, seem to be practicing on the fly with this. Take a break folks ... and yes, come down off your high horse.

Who do you think is practicing on the fly? Can you provide any examples? I might be wrong, but to me you sound angry about something?

30 minutes ago, NursePelican said:

What's the first rule in nursing? All the letters behind your name don't help you pump a chest or wipe a butt any better.

I did not know that was the rule. But where is this coming from? It seems a bit off topic?

33 minutes ago, NursePelican said:

Look at how they have flip flopped already with the entire Covid-19 virus from the beginning. Things literally change daily.

I think that’s to be expected with a novel virus, especially in the early days of the pandemic. Now that we’re almost a year in we know so much more than we did in the late Winter and Spring. But there’s still a whole lot more that we don’t know. It’s the nature of the beast.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 5, 2020

2 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

I think that it will be mandated for many health professionals in the future...as long as it is proven to be helpful in combating what will likely be an annual battle with this virus. It will be, for us, much like it is for other immunization; a requirement to work with vulnerable populations.

Some school districts have mandatory vaccinations for students and it could go that way as well, as do some employers, so it's not out of the realm of possibility nor even unprecedented.

I think at first they won't do this, not wanting a backlash. The backlash was bad enough over the influenza mandate that most facilities around here stopped that idea. We used to have to wear a mask if we didn't vaccinate for the flu, but now we just have to sign off that we are aware that we could kill our patients yet still don't want it.

ohbejoyful · Dec 5, 2020

59 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

While there is some protection provided by PPE in terms of preventing transmission of Covid, it's relatively small compared to that provided by vaccination.

You're of course free to choose not to take the vaccine, but I'm not sure why you then feel you should still be able to be in a role where there's such a high risk to those you may transmit the virus to if you chose not take the most effective available measure to protect them.

This is a decent point, but I will say that It is hard for me to believe that adhering to proper and experienced PPE protocols are not safe enough, as I have been practicing these policies in confidence from my employer all year with the indication that I am protected and so are my patients..

One option to that point is considering going back to exclusively covid ICU for a year as I would be of no risk to that population, and waiting for the full data and results of first vaccine releases and then re-assessing... or maybe just take a vacation from nursing altogether and see how this all plays out. But no matter what it’s my choice.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 5, 2020

29 minutes ago, Tweety said:

Some school districts have mandatory vaccinations for students and it could go that way as well, as do some employers, so it's not out of the realm of possibility nor even unprecedented.

I think at first they won't do this, not wanting a backlash. The backlash was bad enough over the influenza mandate that most facilities around here stopped that idea. We used to have to wear a mask if we didn't vaccinate for the flu, but now we just have to sign off that we are aware that we could kill our patients yet still don't want it.

I agree. Not at first. But just like many employers require proof of vaccination for many other preventable diseases, I suspect covid vaccination will become a mandate for health professionals in many, if not most, practice environments. I doubt that the majority of health professionals will want to take the chance that we could have a repeat of the 2020 covid experience in this country.

NursePelican, ASN, BSN, LPN · Dec 5, 2020

38 minutes ago, macawake said:

Okay. I’ve thought about it. But I can’t say that I understand the point you want to make. Who has said these things? Or rather ”spewed it” in your vernacular. In what context? I recognize the ”start adulting” wording from this thread, but that’s about it.

Who do you think is practicing on the fly? Can you provide any examples? I might be wrong, but to me you sound angry about something?

I did not know that was the rule. But where is this coming from? It seems a bit off topic?

I think that’s to be expected with a novel virus, especially in the early days of the pandemic. Now that we’re almost a year in we know so much more than we did in the late Winter and Spring. But there’s still a whole lot more that we don’t know. It’s the nature of the beast.

I do need to clarify, we have nurses here saying we are wrong if we don't do the adult thing and take the vaccine. Just because they choose to.

You quoted so much, but I think you answered rather nicely for me with this last paragraph. We have learned so much over these past months. So much has changed in our cares to how we quarantine.

The first rule of Nursing is evidenced based practice we all are so proud to display??? We are not practicing that with our current rush to interventions to date with this new strain.

Thanks for your time. Stay safe.

londonflo · Dec 5, 2020

On 11/28/2020 at 8:54 PM, Kyrshamarks said:

I for one will NOT get the vaccine and the moment the Government mandates it is the moment for Armed Insurrection.

Then go to war with eachother and, between the virus and your violence, you will become extinct

ohbejoyful · Dec 5, 2020

4 hours ago, macawake said:

Seems to me as if you cherry-picked the partial paragraph that best suited your needs. I agree that there is a lot we still don’t know, both about the SARS-CoV-2 virus itself and the vaccines that will be approved in the future. Yes, more research is needed. And it’s taking place as we speak (write).

What do you think about this part from the article I linked?

The phase III trials for several Covid vaccines are taking place right now. So when the complete study data is released and peer-reviewed I’ll be sure to look at all the safety data. And then make up my mind.

The opinion piece that you linked in a previous post mentioned the dengue fever vaccine Dengvaxia. Wasn’t its ability to sometimes cause more severe disease in people who hadn’t been previously infected discovered before it was approved in the U.S.?

It appears that it’s only approved for use in people with laboratory confirmed prior dengue virus infection? It’s the same in Europe.

From what I gather the risk was identified prior to approval in our countries during a vaccine program vaccinating children in a less prosperous country. For us, the safety checks worked as they usually do in more affluent countries. Tragically, less so for the kids in that program.

My point is, why don’t you have confidence that the scientific ”checks and balances” will work?

https://www.CDC.gov/dengue/prevention/dengue-vaccine.html

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/dengvaxia

I wasn’t asking if you would force patients to take their medications. None of us would. I was asking you if you consider your patients ”test subjects” when you administer an approved medication? If the patient asks you; is this med safe? Would you answer; I have no idea. It’s only been approved for six months so we’re still testing it. So glad you volunteered.

I have all kinds of biases. Some that I’m aware of, others that I’m likely not. However how I approach research and general information gathering is not biased. It’s a matter of training. It’s part of our education as nurses. Deciding in advance what we think is right or what we want and then run off to the interwebs looking only for information that supports the opinion we’ve already formed, is not the scientific way.

I’m not an American. In my country the pandemic hasn’t been politicized to Hades and back. It’s quite uncontroversial. We are basically just collectively tired of it, but it doesn’t cause a large number of arguments or widespread animus.

You never answered my question whether you think that Americans will accept the ”Asian model” of controlling the spread of the virus? Would you be willing? Because whether we like it or not, the virus is here to stay. And the possibility of a vaccine, at least to me, is extremely good news. In all honesty none of the other options appeal to me. What’s left?

Americans absolutely will not ever accept the Asian model of controlling the virus. Our best hope is that time will show us the vaccine is actually as safe and effective as the studies show (hopefully) and people gain trust in it and take it in the future. We shall see. But as for now... America will continue to make their own deductions and decisions without government interference and rebel when the don’t agree with government interference. There are negative consequences of that, but massively positive ones in other scenarios ...it just depends what the current threat is. A pandemic? Bad and prolonged health and economic outcomes. What if in another scenario we’re faced with a future threat to democracy and constitutional freedoms? Well, in that scenario, we prevail. Asian countries will combat pandemics more quickly but how is their government structure working for them? Asia is huge, but the majority of Asian population encompasses countries who make up the lowest-ranked countries of the World Press Freedom Index. It is a trade-off in times like these and others. America is unique and has pros and cons regarding rebellion and self sufficiency, but this uniqueness and our freedoms are what drive innovation and immigration here. It’s literally what makes America what it is. You have to take the good with the bad.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 5, 2020

It would seem that the USA's current government isn't working very well for We the People. We are in the midst of one of the most serious threats to our "democracy" at this very moment.

Missingyou, CNA · Dec 5, 2020

At our long term car facility we already told It WILL be mandatory unless we provide a doctor's note, same as with the flu vaccine.

So far, I don't know of any employee willing to take it. Including upper management. Many have said they will quit & go to lesser paid nursing facilities that won't require it.