ohbejoyful

This is a really silly comparison. Something simple and easily observable like a shape vs a complex new medical treatment. I guess if you wanted to use this to compare to anti vaxxers in general...people who don’t want to take vaccines that have been around for decades... but you actually think a new complex investigational medical treatment that the best scientists only struggled with for over a decade prior to this “light speed approval” has no need for more data? A treatment that was only released to the general public 2 months ago...only under emergency authorization use... and that if you don’t feel comfortable taking it you are overly skeptical to the point where you don’t believe the earth is even round? You don’t agree that there is not enough real life (not laboratory) data on how it affects fertility, pregnancy and ADE effects? You don’t believe that kind of data is important? I guess you can argue that some people are so overly trusting that they need no real world data , just a stamp of approval from authorities they’ll take anything.

This is a great point, and I believe this is primarily why so many people are absolutely fine with taking a new investigational medical treatment without hesitation. However, for those who have been infected with covid with no side effects or for those who have worked around covid and never gotten infected it can diminish the fear of the virus. I don’t want to get sick or get anyone else sick and believe I can prevent that with social distancing, hand washing, PPE, staying at home etc. in the meantime until I can see for myself how this vaccine is affecting people down the line with re exposure to covid (ADE?) pregnancy and fertility etc.

You must not actually work directly with acute covid patients and just read the news? Tell me I’m wrong. I actually found out and began to understand after this post that some of my patients who were asymptomatic at the point of my care were staying to finish their 5 day completion of IV remdezivir. And some were just being monitored for being considered high risk. However when you are extremely short staffed it can be difficult to understand but I believe doctors are doing their best to make difficult medical choices amid a staffing crisis and new virus with ever changing protocols treatments and recommendations. You and a handful of others rile ME up for being so incredibly disrespectful of those of us on the frontlines and our personal medical decisions regarding investigational medical treatments. Sickening that you think you know it all. Have some tolerance and humility.

I know the point of the article is that the investigational vaccines appear to be promising so I don’t need to you to remind me. I posted it to show you the numerous times the verbage such as investigational and expiremental. You actually think because it has been one month since this particular article came out that now the vaccinations are no longer investigational? Wow... These are still experimental and investigational vaccinations. They are only approved through emergency use authorizations they are not even fda approved. All of this per educational pamphlet you get when you receive the vaccine. Stop judging people for not wanting to partake in *****NEW INVESTIGATIONAL MEDICAL TREATMENTS******** even though so far evidence looks promising. If you keep looking around the vaccines are continually still called investigational and experimental in numerous accredited publications and educational pamphlets you receive when you get when you receive the vaccines. Sorry that this particular one was from one month ago ... all of the sudden it’s not investigational from one whole month later!? Give me a break! ????

It is absolutely still in investigative stage and also called experimental still. Surprising people don’t realize this!! This is why I am so concerned people on here are intolerant to those who don’t want to take it yet. These terms are avoided in the media as it can envoke fear. But people deserve to understand that yes it is still investigational and experimental. That is why you get an educational paper explaining it and why it is technically not fda approved but emergency use authorization only. Please look at the verbage below I’ve seen this exact terminology in a ton of accredited scientific articles, research analysis and educational pamphlets https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/experimental-coronavirus-vaccine-highly-effective I am grateful that so far the research looks promising. I am grateful for all the research and work that has been put into these investigational and experimental vaccines and also grateful people are willing to take them while they are still in the investigational and experimental stages, however people have a right to wait until there is more data.

I social distance in the grocery store, wear a mask and wash my hands. It’s sufficient. The people not abiding by this are the ones at risk. The ones having large gatherings without a mask, the ones eating indoors at restaurants, the ones going to Vegas... the list goes on. It is highly unlikely that I social distance, wear a mask, frequently wash my hands and go grocery shopping twice a month and I will catch it. Some people are scared to the point they bleach their packages and never leave their home. A bit overkill. I understand the new strains of the virus are more virulent ...but we still just wear a surgical mask in a covid positive patient’s room (If they are not on high amounts of o2, bipap, intubated) while they are hacking coughing and not wearing a mask... surgical masks mixed with social distancing around people not coughing or symptomatic is highly unlikely to be an issue in comparison to that. Always wash your hands. also, in regards to people who won’t take fda approved vaccinations that have been around for decades... I never said I wouldn’t take the vaccine I just personally would rather wait for more research and data on these novel vaccines. In return, I will continue to live as I have the past year to keep myself and others safe. Curious to see what data will emerge from both the virus and the vaccine. Curious to see where we will be at with the virus even being a concern to society in a few years. If you think we know it all at this time than you don’t understand how scientific evidence evolves as time and data allow for more information. Let’s revisit this conversation in 2023....

I understand there is misinformation out there, I take everything with a grain of salt. What bothers me is that we haven’t had any long term research on these particular mRNA vaccinations. mRNA vaccination studies in the past were wrought with complications. If you read a lot of the study reviews they say results are promising but explain there is not enough information yet at this time for the risk of possible complications. ADE being the most concerning. There hasn’t been enough time to know for sure, time reveals more evidence, we don’t know it all now. I’m waiting for more scientific research to evolve from the release of the vaccine before taking it. We only know a limited amount of information at this time. If you don’t think we are going to continue to learn more about covid as well as the new vaccines to treat covid you don’t understand how science works. Personally I’d like to wait for the research and data to unfold after being released to the general public. It would take a few years to see some of these possible effects surface. Again, I’m grateful for people who are willing to take these medical treatments while still in the investigational stage. I’ll continue to social distance wear proper gear and stay home. I worked full time every shift on a covid ICU for almost an entire year and wore proper protection. Never tested positive, never had symptoms, never passed anything to anyone in my household, never tested positive for antibodies. I believe strict PPE protocols are effective. Sorry that I also don’t want to be one of the first people to try a novel investigational medical treatment too.

Actually you had it right the first time... I never said that, it was Aries’ post ... I’m aware of this fact from extensive research and debate and never said this.

I am done responding on this thread for now- I’ve made my point many times. Just here to remind people to not shame and belittle others personal medical choices. I’m all for the links to educational resources but completely done with nitpicking! Bye

I’ll wait until studies are out there regarding specifically ADE and fertility effects which will take at least a year to observe and study. Vaccinated people will have a control group, those who are not getting vaccinated.

Oh and before anyone has a heart attack that I called the vaccines experimental... that’s what the scientists are calling it too as well as investigational. It is an appropriate choice of words that is only avoided to not spread fear not because it is untrue. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/experimental-coronavirus-vaccine-highly-effective

“ At St. Elizabeth Community Hospital in Tehama County, fewer than half of the 700 hospital workers eligible for the vaccine were willing to take the shot when it was first offered. At Providence Holy Cross Medical Center in Mission Hills, one in five frontline nurses and doctors have declined the shot. Roughly 20% to 40% of L.A. County’s frontline workers who were offered the vaccine did the same, according to county public health officials. So many frontline workers in Riverside County have refused the vaccine — an estimated 50% — that hospital and public officials met to strategize how best to distribute the unused doses, Public Health Director Kim Saruwatari said.” https://www.Google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-31/healthcare-workers-refuse-covid-19-vaccine-access%3f_amp=true One example of dozens of articles with similar statistics .... there are significant amounts of doctors and nurses who declined the experimental/emergency vaccination. Stop shaming people and acting like because they aren’t a nurse that they are stupid. Grateful for those willing to take the experimental/emergency vaccination as it will provide the data for long term effects including fertility, ADE, autoimmune disease etc. but you shouldn’t be expected to take it or considered uneducated or unintelligent. Get over yourself and have some respect for people’s personal medical decisions.

I really hope you know there are people out there who think the responses to your posts on here are condescending and out of line. Assumptions that because you are trying to get into an LPN program that you aren’t educated. Assumptions that because you are skeptical means you will spread that skepticism to your patients. Assumptions that it is because you don’t have enough information, aren’t science based etc is why you have your opinion. Assumptions that you shouldn’t even work in healthcare if you don’t volunteer in the early release of a new vaccines before data has been collected for long term effects and pregnancy and fertility outcomes. These are all shaming tactics. The best thing I ever did was stop engaging with people who have no respect for other’s skepticism, concerns and desire for more long term scientific data. No respect for people to have their own choice regarding their personal medical treatments and care. I’m all for healthy debate that includes respecting different perspective and sharing opposing information. That happens around here too, but not enough. Doctors, nurses, all spectrums of healthcare providers have varying opinions regarding these new vaccinations and just because you are not yet a nurse has nothing to do with your perspective. Nurses have a history of belittling, judging others who don’t go along with whatever new research is current. Even though research and outcomes continue to evolve as time goes on. For example, CDC said masks don’t work and two weeks later said they did. Some hospitals fired workers for wearing masks and forbid it and said they were following CDC guidelines. In the early 1900's people believed that radioactivity was good for you. In the 1500's mercury was used in the treatment of syphilis. The lobotomy was thought to be a cure for mental illness. There was a time when the medical community considered drinking urine or applying it as a poultice an effective treatment for maladies ranging from acne and asthma to migraines and cancer. Let’s remember our history and how science actually works instead of science shaming people. “There are surprisingly few proven facts in science. Instead, scientists often talk about how much evidence there is for their theories. The more evidence, the stronger the theory and the more accepted it becomes. Scientists are usually very careful to accumulate lots of evidence and test their theories thoroughly. But the history of science has some key, if rare, examples of evidence misleading enough to bring a whole scientific community to believe something later considered to be radically false” Many health care professionals are taking a wait and see approach in hopes of acquiring more evidence data and research. You are not stupid, unscientific or uneducated by default for not jumping to take a new treatment. I only encourage people to respect others medical treatments and choices. You should treat your patients and your peers with a little respect. Educate, inquire, do not shame or pressure. Very unethical. ***posting statement research link update for those of you who want it https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2625319 the other research link that I posted did not contain the specific information regarding the shortened period of time of receiving fda approval and the increase to now 1/3 of fda approved medications findings shown later after release to be proven unsafe. The link I posted above is specific for the statement I made in my other post. And need I remind you the novel mRNA vaccinations for covid 19 are not fda approved they only have emergency authorization use ... as the educational paper you receive clearly tells you when you get the vaccination.

Aries I really hope you know there are people out there who think the people who are responding to your posts on here are condescending and out of line to say the very least. Assumptions that because you are trying to get into an LPN program that you aren’t educated. Assumptions that because you are skeptical means you will spread that skepticism to your patients. (Like what are you going to spread your religious beliefs to your patients too... come on) Assumptions that it is only because you don’t have enough information and aren’t science based is why you have made your personal medical decision at this time. Assumptions that you shouldn’t even work in healthcare if you don’t volunteer in the early release of a new vaccines (before data has been collected for long term effects and pregnancy and fertility outcomes. ) These are all shaming tactics. The best thing I ever did was stop engaging with people who have no respect for other’s skepticism, concerns and desire for more long term scientific data. No respect for people to have their own choice regarding their personal medical treatments and care. I’m all for healthy debate that includes respecting different perspective and sharing opposing information. That happens around here too, but not enough. Doctors, nurses, all spectrums and educational levels of healthcare providers have varying opinions regarding these new vaccinations and just because you are not yet a nurse has nothing to do with your perspective. Nurses have a history of belittling and judging others who don’t go along with whatever new research is current. Even though research and outcomes continue to evolve as time goes on. For example, CDC said masks don’t work and two weeks later said they did. Some hospitals fired workers for wearing masks and forbid it and said they were following CDC guidelines. In the early 1900's people believed that radioactivity was good for you. In the 1500's mercury was used in the treatment of syphilis. The lobotomy was thought to be a cure for mental illness. There was a time when the medical community considered drinking urine or applying it as a poultice an effective treatment for maladies ranging from acne and asthma to migraines and cancer. Let’s remember our history and how science actually works instead of science shaming people. “There are surprisingly few proven facts in science. Instead, scientists often talk about how much evidence there is for their theories. The more evidence, the stronger the theory and the more accepted it becomes. Scientists are usually very careful to accumulate lots of evidence and test their theories thoroughly. But the history of science has some key, if rare, examples of evidence misleading enough to bring a whole scientific community to believe something later considered to be radically false” Time and long term research is aligned with better scientific evidence and safety. Over the past two decades the FDA has sped up its authorization processes and nearly one third of fda approved medications result in later finding that the medications are unsafe. “Nearly a third of FDA-approved drugs had problems, study finds” https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa0706341#t=article Many health care professionals are taking a wait and see approach in hopes of acquiring *more* evidence data and research. You are not stupid, unscientific or uneducated by default for not jumping to take a new treatment. I only encourage people to respect others medical treatments and choices. You should treat your patients and your peers with a little respect. Educate, inquire, do not shame or pressure. Very unethical. And extremely ignorant to think that just because today something is thought to be safe, effective etc that time can possibly show us more scientific data to contradict what we once thought to be true. Aries, your best bet is to just stop talking to these people on here who have no respect for you and confidently know that your medical treatment choices are your own. I hope you are continuing to follow research as it unfolds and will make your personal decision by weighing your own risks and benefits and using scientific data to do so and not acting out of any fear mongering misinformation on either side of the perspective. Personally to me it’s way to early to tell how all of this will play out and I know I need more time, but I will absolutely be closely watching the data over the next year or two and making my health decisions intelligently and independently. ✌️

Please look at my old response you apparently missed it? I requoted from above. I apologize if I angered you by telling you I am sorry for what your generation went through in response to you saying to me that your generation was massively experimented on. I am glad that so much good has come from vaccination and medical treatments that are new, but I strongly stand by the ethics that an individual should choose their medical care and treatments no matter what. You seem to respond to most posts very angry and political and one sided, it’s unfortunate people can not just have intellectual discourse without emotional propagandas clouding their judgement. There is a lot of propaganda, misinformation, and manipulation on *both political aisles* that only serve to divide people and you have clearly fallen deeply for one side of it (and of course I know it also exists on the opposite side too.) It’s become hard to respect your point of view on this forum when you make everything angry and political and appear to be in support of bypassing basic respect and ethics on individuals medical choices as you patronize and socially degrade them by insisting they must be stupid, uninformed or trump supporters. The main thing I am trying to get through to you is that not everyone who is declining the vaccination is a trump supporter, uneducated, unable or unwilling to research. I hope for you to have some real acceptance that there are people who think differently than you about getting vaccinated right away at this point of emergency use and that is okay, you cannot control other people. Most people will eventually get vaccinated after more data comes through. It is unprofessional and unethical to socially demean your peers for their own personal medical decisions regarding a non FDA approved emergency medical treatment, or any medical treatment for that manner. I could not imagine this behavior toward a patient, you can educate patients and show an example, but it is their choice, they shouldn’t face pressure or socially demeaning comments. I don’t know why you are treating your peers in this manner and don’t think there is anything wrong with it.