Now that the Covid 19 vaccine is just around the corner... Will it be mandatory?

[NewRN'16]

Are we going to be able to refuse it, or will it be mandatory? 

I have had severe reactions to the influenza vaccine and eventually I declined it. 

Do we need to have a severe reaction in order for us to decline any further covid 19 vaccines? Or we could still opt out? 

What do you guys think? 

[Missingyou, CNA]

Some logic I've heard in our nursing home is: if every resident is required to get the vaccine, why force every staff to get it.  If the facility's plan is to protect the residents and all the residents are vaccinated...........mission accomplished without staff being vaccinated.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

5 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

I agree.  Not at first.  But just like many employers require proof of vaccination for many other preventable diseases, I suspect covid vaccination will become a mandate for health professionals in many, if not most, practice environments. I doubt that the majority of health professionals will want to take the chance that we could have a repeat of the 2020 covid experience in this country.

 

Yep.  Some countries require vaccination prior to traveling there.  Some African countries require a certificate for yellow fever vaccine for example.  None of this is unprecedented.  

Proof of vaccination is not a widespread requirement here in Florida by employers that I'm aware of.  

Trump and people like our Republican governor that refuses to put any covid-related restrictions on us are banking on the vaccine.  

The thing that's biting them in the butt is many of their supporters don't trust Fauci and believe covid is no big deal.  They spent the last nine months downplaying covid and now want people to get the vaccine and many aren't buying it.  Why vaccinate for something that isn't a big deal and doesn't kill that many people anyway because the numbers are fake?

Conspiracy theories also are out there, including the one about Bill Gates and the government wanting to implant devices through vaccine.  

I can understand looking at the science and making an informed decision one way or another, but the dumbing down of America is showing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/covid-19-vaccines-face-varied-powerful-misinformation-movement-online-n1249378

[DesiDani]

This is makes no sense. There has been complaints about how the COVID response has been handled. People repeatedly say go with the science. Any hint of misinformation was blocked out or widely rebuked here and in the media. There are two new vaccines that will be out soon, both with very high success rates.  Yet, some healthcare workers are still not going to take it and have doubts? Why? 

The narrative, I heard, was that HCW need the vaccine, because they are the ones who are most affected by COVID and they are taking care of every ones loved ones who have it.

 

A vaccine comes out, and some are like "well.... I don't think I want to take it".  

Wait what?!?!? Seriously?

 

Some people will always find something to complain about.

[DesiDani]

This is makes no sense. There has been complaints about how the COVID response has been handled. People repeatedly say go with the science. Any hint of misinformation was blocked out or widely rebuked here and in the media. There are two new vaccines that will be out soon, both with very high success rates.  Yet, some healthcare workers are still not going to take it and have doubts? Why? 

The narrative, I heard, was that HCW need the vaccine, because they are the ones who are most affected by COVID and they are taking care of every ones loved ones who have it.

 

A vaccine comes out, and some are like "well.... I don't think I want to take it".  

Wait what?!?!? Seriously?

 

Some people will always find something to complain about.

[DesiDani]

I wouldn't be surprised if those nurse who refuse to take the vaccine will use that as an excuse not to take care of a COVID patient, despite the hospital having adequate supply of PPE.

Most HCW don't want to go in an isolation room. With COVID you need full airborne precautions plus some.  HCW scuff over assignments for the smallest things. This will surely be one of them.  Hope the charge nurses have some backbone.

[riblets]

My employer sent a survey asking if we were interested in getting vaccinated. It is amazing how many people are not. I will not. We don't really know what the long term consequences of this virus are going to be. How can we predict what the long term consequences of the vaccine are going to be? Maybe my tin foil hat is too tight, but I don't trust something that gets FDA/CDC/WHO approval in just a few months and a free pass from the government. Look how that same situation turned out for the dengue fever vaccine and the children of the Philippines. There are too many unknowns for my peace of mind.

The day the vaccine becomes mandatory is the day I retire. Then I can go somewhere warm for the Winter....

[ohbejoyful]

45 minutes ago, riblets said:

My employer sent a survey asking if we were interested in getting vaccinated. It is amazing how many people are not. I will not. We don't really know what the long term consequences of this virus are going to be. How can we predict what the long term consequences of the vaccine are going to be? Maybe my tin foil hat is too tight, but I don't trust something that gets FDA/CDC/WHO approval in just a few months and a free pass from the government. Look how that same situation turned out for the dengue fever vaccine and the children of the Philippines. There are too many unknowns for my peace of mind.

The day the vaccine becomes mandatory is the day I retire. Then I can go somewhere warm for the Winter....

Yeah from casual conversation it seems like at least half of my coworkers definitely do not want to take the first released vaccine at this time. I don’t think mandating healthcare workers to be the first to take the vaccine at this time will go over well at all. Not to burst anyone’s bubble who so desperately wants to go back to normal that they hope everyone will just be forced to take it, I just don’t see that happening. I think we have a long road ahead of us. I respect my peers if they want to take it or not, it is a personal medical decision. This is the same way I treat my patients.

[macawake, MSN]

8 hours ago, riblets said:

My employer sent a survey asking if we were interested in getting vaccinated. It is amazing how many people are not. I will not. We don't really know what the long term consequences of this virus are going to be. How can we predict what the long term consequences of the vaccine are going to be? Maybe my tin foil hat is too tight, but I don't trust something that gets FDA/CDC/WHO approval in just a few months and a free pass from the government. Look how that same situation turned out for the dengue fever vaccine and the children of the Philippines. There are too many unknowns for my peace of mind.

The day the vaccine becomes mandatory is the day I retire. Then I can go somewhere warm for the Winter....

Welcome to AN! You are one of several posters who come here and made their very first post about a Covid-19 vaccine. I know you did not ask ? but if you had, then yes I do think your tinfoil hat is constricting blood flow to a vital organ and affecting your decision making. 

You and several others refer to a Covid-19 vaccine as the vaccine. There are several in the pipeline and to me it makes absolutely no logical sense to say categorically no before you’ve even had the chance to review the data. You are in my opinion basing your decision on emotion, not logic or science. Making decisions based on distrust of various oraganizations instead of making use of your education and intellect is to me a poor choice. 

As you correctly state, we don’t yet know what the long term consequences of the virus will be, but we are seeing some worrisome signs of long term morbidity/sequelae. And we know for darn sure that a significant number of people are dying from the infection.

Why are you willing to roll the dice with the disease but have made up your mind about potential vaccines in advance before even making an effort to find out as much as you can about them? 

About the dengue fever vaccine, as far as I know it was never approved in the U.S. for use for individuals without a prior laboratory confirmed dengue infection? Which would mean that the organizations tasked with keeping you safe did their job, wouldn’t it? 

[macawake, MSN]

13 hours ago, Missingyou said:

Some logic I've heard in our nursing home is: if every resident is required to get the vaccine, why force every staff to get it.  If the facility's plan is to protect the residents and all the residents are vaccinated...........mission accomplished without staff being vaccinated.

That’s not really quality logic.

When you use the word ”required” when talking about vaccinating residents, does that mean that the talk you heard at your nursing home means that residents should be forced to take the vaccine?

Apart from the fact that I don’t think that residents should be made to take the vaccine, just as I don’t think any one else should be forced either, it wouldn’t be enough to keep them safe. My belief is that people should be informed about the benefits of vaccines, for individuals and for society as a whole, and hopefully a large enough number will understand the rationale for taking them.

Not every resident can take a vaccine. They may be immunocompromised, either due to disease or medications. Of the ones that do take it, not all will have a successful antibody response. Eventhough the preliminary data (the bits and pieces we’ve seen so far) indicate that we can be cautiously optimistic when it comes to the rate of seroconversion in the elderly, with vaccines in general antibody response often tends to be considerably lower in the elderly than in younger adults. 

The point I’m making is that having all the people in the risk groups vaccinate but no one else, will not protect all of the people in that vulnerable group. So no, mission not accomplished. And I think it’s also a good idea to remember that Covid-19 can pose a serious health threat even to people who aren’t elderly or belong to other risk groups.

 

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https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19

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https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808
 

(the Mayo Clinic link is from June this year).

[macawake, MSN]

18 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

Americans absolutely will not ever accept the Asian model of controlling the virus. Our best hope is that time will show us the vaccine is actually as safe and effective as the studies show (hopefully) and people gain trust in it and take it in the future. We shall see. But as for now... 

Thanks for your reply. I never thought it was a viable option for the U.S. The reason I asked you is that the professor in the opinion piece you linked earlier, realized that you have to do something to decrease the amount of disease spread you have now. Since he seems to think that waiting with the vaccine is a good idea, he proposed other measures in lieu of a quick vaccine rollout.

How do you want to move forward since you appear to have nixed a vaccine? Exactly how much time is in your opinion needed to decide that a vaccine is safe?  I personally think that you as a nation face bigger challenges than merely ascertaining the objective safety of a vaccine. There has been a troubling trend of vaccine disinformation spreading on the internet and I don’t think it’s helpful that so many people appear to have a knee-jerk reflex of distrust towards institutions like the WHO, the CDC, the FDA and others. I think you’re facing an uphill battle.
 

18 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

Asian countries will combat pandemics more quickly but how is their government structure working for them?  Asia is huge, but the majority of Asian population encompasses countries who make up the lowest-ranked countries of the World Press Freedom Index. It is a trade-off in times like these and others. America is unique and has pros and cons regarding rebellion and self sufficiency, but this uniqueness and our freedoms are what drive innovation and immigration here. It’s literally what makes America what it is. You have to take the good with the bad. 

In not sure if you think that I’m advocating for a more restrictive policy like the one implemented in some Asian countries since you ask me how I think their government structure is working for them? I’m not. But since you mentioned the World Press Freedom Index, your ranking needs some improvement as well. 45/180 isn’t catastrophic, but it isn’t great either. 

18 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

 America will continue to make their own deductions and decisions without government interference and rebel when the don’t agree with government interference. There are negative consequences of that, but massively positive ones in other scenarios ...it just depends what the current threat is. A pandemic? Bad and prolonged health and economic outcomes. What if in another scenario we’re faced with a future threat to democracy and constitutional freedoms? Well, in that scenario, we will prevail.

A future threat? I don’t want to make this thread too political. I’ll simply say that I do hope with all my being that you will prevail. The world is watching, and from the outside looking in, it’s not exactly confidence-inspiring. 

[NurseBlaq]

Why must every one who doesn't want to rush to take the covid vaccine met with shame, a guilt trip, and a whole damn thesis of opinion and NOT facts when the hold up is wanting solid EVIDENCE-BASED facts? This going thread to thread to force-feed someone your thoughts on why they're a bad person and obligated to take the vaccine simply because they're a nurse despite their own personal beliefs to satisfy you and your bourgeois thoughts has to stop! We are entitled to our refusals so stop the shenanigans packaged as friendly debate @macawake. It's become a pattern so it's no longer debate, it's borderline shame and bully tactics. ?

[ohbejoyful]

1 hour ago, macawake said:

Thanks for your reply. I never thought it was a viable option for the U.S. The reason I asked you is that the professor in the opinion piece you linked earlier, realized that you have to do something to decrease the amount of disease spread you have now. Since he seems to think that waiting with the vaccine is a good idea, he proposed other measures in lieu of a quick vaccine rollout.

How do you want to move forward since you appear to have nixed a vaccine? Exactly how much time is in your opinion needed to decide that a vaccine is safe?  I personally think that you as a nation face bigger challenges than merely ascertaining the objective safety of a vaccine. There has been a troubling trend of vaccine disinformation spreading on the internet and I don’t think it’s helpful that so many people appear to have a knee-jerk reflex of distrust towards institutions like the WHO, the FDA and others. I think you’re facing an uphill battle.
 

In not sure of you think that I’m advocating for a more restrictive policy like the one implemented in some Asian countries since you ask me how I think their government structure is working for them? I’m not. But since you mentioned the World Press Freedom Index, your ranking needs some improvement as well. 45/180 isn’t catastrophic , but it isn’t great either. 

A future threat? I don’t want to make this thread too political. I’ll simply say that I do hope with all my being that you will prevail. The world is watching, and from the outside looking in, it’s not exactly confidence-inspiring. 

I think if you “read the room” or feel out the climate, you will see the core of all of this is that there is a massive distrust in pharmaceutical companies, media promoted science and even the CDC and WHO. Science has to be proven. And if that proof is to be believed by the majority, than the people proving that information have to hold general respect and trust by practicing transparency at all costs. I think this is the core problem and there is not an fast fix for it at this time. 

I enjoy your intelligence and passion but I don’t understand why you keep trying to persuade people to think differently when the issue is trust, which some have and some do not. You cannot just convince or force someone to trust, it has to be proven or earned.

There is no real moral dilemma to a healthcare worker to take the vaccine right away. For example, there is not enough of the vaccine to vaccinate every single healthcare worker in every single facility anyway, so I see no moral conflict in saying I would like to wait, give it to another healthcare worker who wants it. If there is not enough to go around it can and should be delivered on a choice by choice basis. Handing the issue this way would earn respect and trust, mandates and social pressures only fuel the distrust. 

I believe all of your efforts to be futile at this time. I think the reason for this is because many people want tangible real world proof they can see with their own eyes, not a study on a piece of paper to make their deductions.. it’s frustrating but it is all due to lack of confidence and trust, and you cannot provide that with your logical deductions and reasonings.

Also, If educated pro-vaccination nurses feel this way just imagine all of the anti vaccination population feel...This is going to take some time, real world data and tangible evidence before confidence is restored. I don’t blame you for finding fault in logic and wanting to help people’s thoughts process, but maybe take a step back and look at the core issue. 

Can you restore widespread confidence issues by nitpicking everyone on this thread? No, it’s out of your hands. You can get the vaccine and advocate for your experience, and that might inspire someone in the future. Otherwise I don’t think there is much you can do regarding this issue.