Now that the Covid 19 vaccine is just around the corner... Will it be mandatory?

DesiDani · Dec 5, 2020

My job put out one of those Yes or No mandatory surveys on if we want the vaccine or not. So, I guess for those who answered no, will have wear a N95 all time at work.

Eventually it will be mandatory.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 5, 2020

3 hours ago, Hoosier_RN said:

I don't own a TV, and still hear that ignorance in person and have actually seen some on here with that line of thought. It's no good and solves nothing

I haven't seen that here. I have seen discussion about enthusiasm and hesitations and anxieties relative to these vaccines. It would be true that generalized distrust of vaccinations without evidence is not well received or encouraged within these threads.

DesiDani · Dec 5, 2020

By the way. I clicked yes. I felt that eventually it would be mandatory, plus I don't want to be tossed around units or runs because I answered no.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 5, 2020

3 hours ago, Daisy Joyce said:

I’m seeing gain traction in social media and online forums.

In a discussion in another forum, I actually had somebody ask me if it was fair for me to let other people take the vaccine, and wait and see if they had adverse effects before deciding to take it.

Then went on to say that anybody who didn’t take the vaccine shouldn’t be surprised to be denied being able to shop or travel or work.

I mean, okay, it’s an online forum, but still...

Yeah...there is a lot of crazy getting amplified in our social media right now. I do see antagonistic lines of thinking that I suspect are inspired by bot or troll activity.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 5, 2020

12 minutes ago, DesiDani said:

By the way. I clicked yes. I felt that eventually it would be mandatory, plus I don't want to be tossed around units or runs because I answered no.

I agree that covid19 immunization will end up mandated for those working with vulnerable populations. I don't think this virus is going anywhere.

I do hope that a long term immunity is achieved and annual vaccination is not required. I think that the science for this hope is sound.

My initial concerns about the storage and handling requirements for these first vaccines have been eased some with further information about how they can be stored short term at much more manageable temperatures. Living in rural interior Alaska gives one an appreciation for logistics. We have a dog race every year to commemorate the crazy effort that went into delivering vaccine to a remote Alaska village. That vaccine didn't require storage at -90°F. It doesn't get quite that cold up here.

DesiDani · Dec 5, 2020

I pray that my job will have a list of realistic times and dates available for ALL employees for an extended amount of time.

Call me selfish, I won't be happy if I have to deal with a cluster &^*% after 12hrs and definitely if I have to come in on my day off.

ohbejoyful · Dec 5, 2020

7 hours ago, Daisy Joyce said:

I’m seeing gain traction in social media and online forums.

In a discussion in another forum, I actually had somebody ask me if it was fair for me to let other people take the vaccine, and wait and see if they had adverse effects before deciding to take it.

Then went on to say that anybody who didn’t take the vaccine shouldn’t be surprised to be denied being able to shop or travel or work.

I mean, okay, it’s an online forum, but still...

It is completely sane to say hey, I would like to first wait for the volunteers or people who *want* to take the vaccine now, allow for a widespread use, data collection, time etc. prior to being a volunteer myself.

I am willing to care for the sick and contagious, and wear proper PPE to keep myself and my patients safe. But you cannot and will not tell me what medications, procedures, treatments, inoculations etc. I am required to take.

Sure you can make it a stipulation of employment, and I have the choice to find a different employer who has different policies. But I am not a bad nurse or a hazard to my community because I want more use and data prior to being the first in line to try a new vaccine. This concept of nursing martyrdom must stop.

There are plenty of people who want the vaccine now and they are willing to be first in line. I do my part my caring for the sick, I keep myself and my patients safe by adhering to proper PPE protocols. that is the only thing I signed up for. I feel no guilt or responsibility to being a test subject, and these radical insane minded individuals who believe forced mass inoculation is the only solution aren’t going to socially bully me to feel any differently on this matter.

I am so incredibly sick of these types of people acting like all new vaccines are guaranteed to be safe and your uneducated or paranoid otherwise.

This is a good article written by a credible medical research professor that can explain reasons for not wanting to be first in line to try this vaccine. It’s a personal decision and healthcare workers are divided in how they feel about it and for real, science-based reasons.

”Aside from questions of safety that attend any vaccine, there are good reasons to be especially cautious for COVID-19. Some vaccines worsen the consequences of infection rather than protect, a phenomenon called antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). ADE has been observed in previous attempts to develop coronavirus vaccines. To add to the concern, antibodies typical of ADE are present in the blood of some COVID-19 patients. Such concerns are real. As recently as 2016, Dengavxia, intended to protect children from the dengue virus, increased hospitalizations for children who received the vaccine.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risks-of-rushing-a-covid-19-vaccine/

I don’t know about where you all work, but where I work there is an extreme nursing shortage and people are fleeing the bedside or fleeing for higher paying jobs and travel assignments. We are historically short staffed. If they were to make the vaccine mandatory, half of the nurses would quit.

So... I think it’s safe to say mandated vaccine policies will not last long.

macawake, MSN · Dec 5, 2020

2 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

I am willing to care for the sick and contagious, and wear proper PPE to keep myself and my patients safe. But you cannot and will not tell me what medications, procedures, treatments, inoculations etc. I am This is a good article written by a credible medical research professor that can explain reasons for not wanting to be first in line to try this vaccine. It’s a personal decision and healthcare workers are divided in how they feel about it and for real, science-based reasons.

”Aside from questions of safety that attend any vaccine, there are good reasons to be especially cautious for COVID-19. Some vaccines worsen the consequences of infection rather than protect, a phenomenon called antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). ADE has been observed in previous attempts to develop coronavirus vaccines. To add to the concern, antibodies typical of ADE are present in the blood of some COVID-19 patients. Such concerns are real. As recently as 2016, Dengavxia, intended to protect children from the dengue virus, increased hospitalizations for children who received the vaccine.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risks-of-rushing-a-covid-19-vaccine/

There are no references after the article you linked. I wouldn’t call it an article in the scientific sense, it’s an opinion piece. Granted it’s written by a medical professional, but it’s an opinion piece all the same.

I don’t know you so I don’t know in this applies to you, but I’ve noticed that some people who’ve made up their minds in advance to not take a potential vaccine appear to have done their research in a rather confirmation bias-y manner. What I mean is that they feel hesitant about taking a vaccine that hasn’t even been approved yet and we haven’t had a chance to review yet, and they enter search terms on the internet with the intent to find validation for their feelings of unease.

The professor in your opinion piece mentions other measures that can be taken instead if we/you decide to postpone vaccination, to try to decrease the spread of the virus. Are you onboard with them? Are the American people? Do you think people will be able to keep it up for years until everyone feels comfortable with a vaccine? He describes measures that some Asian countries have taken to control the pandemic as an alternative to a vaccine. They are widespread testing, contact tracing and mandatory controlled quarantine. Will people put up with that? Do you have nationwide capacity to effectively contact trace? Are people willing to limit their social interections for the duration?

The culture of the Asian countries he refers to are quite different from Western countries. I’m having a hard time seeing Americans, or the populations of other Western nations, accepting to be either placed in a locked and guarded facility or be put in house arrest and be required to geo-position with their cell prone and face infront of the camera, several times per day so that the authorities can keep track of their whereabouts. I certainly wouldn’t want to live in that world.

How much do you really know about ADE and ERD? I think it might somewhat put your mind at ease if you were to read the below article. All of it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

2 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

I feel no guilt or responsibility to being a test subject, and these radical insane minded individuals who believe forced mass inoculation is the only solution aren’t going to socially bully me to feel any differently on this matter.

I am so incredibly sick of these types of people acting like all new vaccines are guaranteed to be safe and your uneducated or paranoid otherwise.

I haven’t seen a single poster on this site claim that a new vaccine is guaranteed to be safe. Have you? All medications that have any kind of effect on the human body, can and will have side effects. (except for homeopathic so called medications ?) but that’s only because they never had a mechanism of action to begin with ?). As with all things in life I think that choosing to take a vaccine or not, boils down to benefits versus risks. Which is why I do my due diligence as best I can so I can make a reasonably well founded decision. But there are no guarantees in life.

My personal opinion is that the vaccine shouldn’t be mandated. But I do think that the world desperately needs a vaccine. Which is why I’ve said several times that I plan on taking the vaccine after I’ve researched the data when it becomes available.

I’m not sure why you refer to people who will take the vaccine after it becomes approved as ”test subjects”? I think it’s a deliberate choice of words intended to denotes and signals distrust. Is that how you feel about pharmaceuticals in general? When you administer approved medications to your patients, do you consider them test subjects too? Of course we continue to gather safety data even after a medication is approved, but the test subjects are the people enrolled in the various trials. In my opinion, we owe them our gratitude.

This isn’t really important, I’m just curious. Do you really think that 50% of nurses would quit if a Covid vaccine becomes mandated? Personally I seriously doubt it. I think that nurses are notoriously poor at advocating for themselves and have in my opinion often accepted the unacceptable. Personally I would be much more likely to walk over unrealistic and unsafe nurse : patient ratios or an employer who didn’t have my back if I encountered threats or violence at work than I would be for having to take an approved vaccine. But perhaps that’s just me.

ohbejoyful · Dec 5, 2020

1 hour ago, macawake said:

There are no references after the article you linked. I wouldn’t call it an article in the scientific sense, it’s an opinion piece. Granted it’s written by a medical professional, but it’s an opinion piece all the same.

I don’t know you so I don’t know in this applies to you, but I’ve noticed that some people who’ve made up their minds in advance to not take a potential vaccine appear to have done their research in a rather confirmation bias-y manner. What I mean is that they feel hesitant about taking a vaccine that hasn’t even been approved yet and we haven’t had a chance to review yet, and they enter search terms on the internet with the intent to find validation for their feelings of unease.

The professor in your opinion piece mentions other measures that can be taken instead if we/you decide to postpone vaccination, to try to decrease the spread of the virus. Are you onboard with them? Are the American people? Do you think people will be able to keep it up for years until everyone feels comfortable with a vaccine? He describes measures that some Asian countries have taken to control the pandemic as an alternative to a vaccine. They are widespread testing, contact tracing and mandatory controlled quarantine. Will people put up with that? Do you have nationwide capacity to effectively contact trace? Are people willing to limit their social interections for the duration?

The culture of the Asian countries he refers to are quite different from Western countries. I’m having a hard time seeing Americans, or the populations of other Western nations, accepting to be either placed in a locked and guarded facility or be put in house arrest and be required to geo-position with their cell prone and face infront of the camera, several times per day so that the authorities can keep track of their whereabouts. I certainly wouldn’t want to live in that world.

How much do you really know about ADE and ERD? I think it might somewhat put your mind at ease if you were to read the below article. All of it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

I haven’t seen a single poster on this site claim that a new vaccine is guaranteed to be safe. Have you? All medications that have any kind of effect on the human body, can and will have side effects. (except for homeopathic so called medications ?) but that’s only because they never had a mechanism of action to begin with ?). As with all things in life I think that choosing to take a vaccine or not, boils down to benefits versus risks. Which is why I do my due diligence as best I can so I can make a reasonably well founded decision. But there are no guarantees in life.

My personal opinion is that the vaccine shouldn’t be mandated. But I do think that the world desperately needs a vaccine. Which is why I’ve said several times that I plan on taking the vaccine after I’ve researched the data when it becomes available.

I’m not sure why you refer to people who will take the vaccine after it becomes approved as ”test subjects”? I think it’s a deliberate choice of words intended to denotes and signals distrust. Is that how you feel about pharmaceuticals in general? When you administer approved medications to your patients, do you consider them test subjects too? Of course we continue to gather safety data even after a medication is approved, but the test subjects are the people enrolled in the various trials. In my opinion, we owe them our gratitude.

This isn’t really important, I’m just curious. Do you really think that 50% of nurses would quit if a Covid vaccine becomes mandated? Personally I seriously doubt it. I think that nurses are notoriously poor at advocating for themselves and have in my opinion often accepted the unacceptable. Personally I would be much more likely to walk over unrealistic and unsafe nurse : patient ratios or an employer who didn’t have my back if I encountered threats or violence at work than I would be for having to take an approved vaccine. But perhaps that’s just me.

I did read your entire article and it only validated my concerns for potential ADE effects from a fast track development first release of a covid 19 vaccine.. ? “ADE has been observed in SARS, MERS and other human respiratory virus infections including RSV and measles, which suggests a real risk of ADE for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and antibody-based interventions. However, clinical data has not yet fully established a role for ADE in human COVID-19 pathology. “

basic summary of your article to me is there is not enough data. I just want more data and widespread use before I personally volunteer for this vaccine.

On the issue of bias, the majority of people on this thread and really everywhere are incredibly and extremely biased, now more than ever. I’m not going to deny bias and neither should you.

However, I deem taking the vaccine when it is first released to be a personal decision and I support anyone’s decision about it either way, and expect others to treat me in the same manner.

I would never tell a patient whether they should take any medication, vaccination, surgery or procedure, only expect the doctor to explain risks and benefits honestly and I would only explain basic aspects of the medication or procedure. I might explain to them importance of treatment but I would never force or want my patient’s family members or doctor to force the patient into a decision they are unsure about. I would never pressure them or guilt them into a personal decision. That’s all I’m asking of my peers...?

macawake, MSN · Dec 5, 2020

2 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

I did read your entire article and it only validated my concerns for potential ADE effects from a fast track development first release of a covid 19 vaccine.. ? “ADE has been observed in SARS, MERS and other human respiratory virus infections including RSV and measles, which suggests a real risk of ADE for SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and antibody-based interventions. However, clinical data has not yet fully established a role for ADE in human COVID-19 pathology. “

Seems to me as if you cherry-picked the partial paragraph that best suited your needs. I agree that there is a lot we still don’t know, both about the SARS-CoV-2 virus itself and the vaccines that will be approved in the future. Yes, more research is needed. And it’s taking place as we speak (write).

What do you think about this part from the article I linked?

Quote

Should it occur, ERD caused by human vaccines will be first observed in larger phase ll and/or phase III efficacy trials that have sufficient infection events for statistical comparisons between the immunized and placebo control study arms. Safety profiles of COVID-19 vaccines should be closely monitored in real time during human efficacy trials, especially for vaccine modalities that may have a higher theoretical potential to cause immunopathology (such as inactivated whole-virus formulations or viral vectors).

The phase III trials for several Covid vaccines are taking place right now. So when the complete study data is released and peer-reviewed I’ll be sure to look at all the safety data. And then make up my mind.

The opinion piece that you linked in a previous post mentioned the dengue fever vaccine Dengvaxia. Wasn’t its ability to sometimes cause more severe disease in people who hadn’t been previously infected discovered before it was approved in the U.S.?

It appears that it’s only approved for use in people with laboratory confirmed prior dengue virus infection? It’s the same in Europe.

From what I gather the risk was identified prior to approval in our countries during a vaccine program vaccinating children in a less prosperous country. For us, the safety checks worked as they usually do in more affluent countries. Tragically, less so for the kids in that program.

My point is, why don’t you have confidence that the scientific ”checks and balances” will work?

https://www.CDC.gov/dengue/prevention/dengue-vaccine.html

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/dengvaxia

2 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

I would never tell a patient whether they should take any medication, vaccination, surgery or procedure, only expect the doctor to explain risks and benefits honestly and I would only explain basic aspects of the medication or procedure. I might explain to them importance of treatment but I would never force or want my patient’s family members or doctor to force the patient into a decision they are unsure about. I would never pressure them or guilt them into a personal decision. That’s all I’m asking of my peers...?

I wasn’t asking if you would force patients to take their medications. None of us would. I was asking you if you consider your patients ”test subjects” when you administer an approved medication? If the patient asks you; is this med safe? Would you answer; I have no idea. It’s only been approved for six months so we’re still testing it. So glad you volunteered.

2 hours ago, ohbejoyful said:

On the issue of bias, the majority of people on this thread and really everywhere are incredibly and extremely biased, now more than ever. I’m not going to deny bias and neither should you.

I have all kinds of biases. Some that I’m aware of, others that I’m likely not. However how I approach research and general information gathering is not biased. It’s a matter of training. It’s part of our education as nurses. Deciding in advance what we think is right or what we want and then run off to the interwebs looking only for information that supports the opinion we’ve already formed, is not the scientific way.

I’m not an American. In my country the pandemic hasn’t been politicized to Hades and back. It’s quite uncontroversial. We are basically just collectively tired of it, but it doesn’t cause a large number of arguments or widespread animus.

You never answered my question whether you think that Americans will accept the ”Asian model” of controlling the spread of the virus? Would you be willing? Because whether we like it or not, the virus is here to stay. And the possibility of a vaccine, at least to me, is extremely good news. In all honesty none of the other options appeal to me. What’s left?

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 5, 2020

The vaccine should not be mandated and right now the buzz seems to be that it is not going to be but that governments will rolls out publicity on the importance of getting vaccinated. I hear three ex-Presidents are going to promote it. I see in England some politicians will be getting their vaccine live on camera as well.

Tens of thousands of people have gotten the vaccine. Sure there are going to be some side effects, and even some bad ones. Those bad outcomes will make headlines for sure. But I figure that like some people have a GI bleed when they take an aspirin, or someone has kidney failure taking NSAIDS, we need to move forward with the vaccinations after so many thousands of people have had it.

American policy and even the policy here in Florida where we don't have any covid-related restrictions at all, is to try to vaccinate ASAP. I for one am ready for herd immunity and life getting back to normal, but don't think it should be forced.

toomuchbaloney · Dec 5, 2020

7 minutes ago, Tweety said:

The vaccine should not be mandated and right now the buzz seems to be that it is not going to be but that governments will rolls out publicity on the importance of getting vaccinated. I hear three ex-Presidents are going to promote it. I see in England some politicians will be getting their vaccine live on camera as well.

Tens of thousands of people have gotten the vaccine. Sure there are going to be some side effects, and even some bad ones. Those bad outcomes will make headlines for sure. But I figure that like some people have a GI bleed when they take an aspirin, or someone has kidney failure taking NSAIDS, we need to move forward with the vaccinations after so many thousands of people have had it.

American policy and even the policy here in Florida where we don't have any covid-related restrictions at all, is to try to vaccinate ASAP. I for one am ready for herd immunity and life getting back to normal, but don't think it should be forced.

I think that it will be mandated for many health professionals in the future...as long as it is proven to be helpful in combating what will likely be an annual battle with this virus. It will be, for us, much like it is for other immunization; a requirement to work with vulnerable populations.