Now that the Covid 19 vaccine is just around the corner... Will it be mandatory?

[NewRN'16]

Are we going to be able to refuse it, or will it be mandatory? 

I have had severe reactions to the influenza vaccine and eventually I declined it. 

Do we need to have a severe reaction in order for us to decline any further covid 19 vaccines? Or we could still opt out? 

What do you guys think? 

[Robmoo, ADN, BSN, RN]

Frankly, I don't think that they should make the vaccine mandatory.  Once we get to a point where anyone who wants the vaccine has had easy access for 3 months remove all restriction and let the chips fall where they may.  Frankly, at times I think that we could use a little more Darwin.

Just got word from our administration.  We will be in line to get the vaccine first when it arrives and it is voluntary.  There is no reason to make it mandatory if there aren't enough for everyone.  The vaccine that would go to a disgruntled health care worker could go to a nursing home resident who needs it.

I believe that health care workers should follow the evidence and not decline the vaccine as a knee jerk reaction or some emotional appeal.  We should be leaders and examples for the community.  We you find a credible scientific study that leads you to believe that the COVID vaccine's risks outweigh the benefits then so be it.

[ohbejoyful]

1 hour ago, Robmoo said:

Frankly, I don't think that they should make the vaccine mandatory.  Once we get to a point where anyone who wants the vaccine has had easy access for 3 months remove all restriction and let the chips fall where they may.  Frankly, at times I think that we could use a little more Darwin.

Just got word from our administration.  We will be in line to get the vaccine first when it arrives and it is voluntary.  There is no reason to make it mandatory if there aren't enough for everyone.  The vaccine that would go to a disgruntled health care worker could go to a nursing home resident who needs it.

I believe that health care workers should follow the evidence and not decline the vaccine as a knee jerk reaction or some emotional appeal.  We should be leaders and examples for the community.  We you find a credible scientific study that leads you to believe that the COVID vaccine's risks outweigh the benefits then so be it.

I would just say in response to this that healthcare workers are feeling more cautious than disgruntled... most of us just don’t want to immediately take the vaccine or be mandated to take the vaccine right away and want a little time for the *best* evidence of the vaccination’s benefits and risks. We just want the *best* studies with the *most* research which will be coming out over the next year with much larger groups of people receiving the vaccine when it is released. It will open up a true diversity of studies and results not just those of the manufacturers.  That will truly allow healthcare workers the time and real life data to follow the *best* evidence and make a person decision based on that credible scientific data and be able to confidently act on the most accurate evidence based practice that isn’t available now but will be in the near future.

So ...just FYI this isn’t an issue of being against data, science, evidence etc. we just maybe perhaps have a higher standard for data and evidence. Waiting a little bit will allow for this.

Ideally, a healthcare worker whose job it is to educate their patients on community health topics such as regular exercise, not smoking or drinking, eating healthy, healthy sleep habits, keeping stress levels low, immunizations etc should also abide by them, however most don’t practice everything we preach. And it doesn’t impede a nurse’s ability to provide the recommended information, or titrate their patient’s life saving drips, or hold their hand when they are scared before surgery, or dress a wound, or catch a med error etc. It’s your own personal life and you can make your own decisions separate from work and your job title and do just as good of a job as a nurse as someone who follows all of the things that they would educate or promote to patients for their own health. You don’t have to follow every guideline to be a nurse, although your life would be better if you did, it still isn’t your *duty* as a nurse to do those things. Just to put your thought process into perspective when you make a statement like that.

As for the topic of keeping your patients safe, we have PPE, hand washing etc we have been rigorously following all year long that is more than sufficient to keep us and our patients safe as long as we have the right equipment and properly adhere to the policies there is no dilemma regarding needing to be vaccinated to safely care for patients. PPE works, it’s not a 100% effective measure but neither is a vaccine.

If someone said that they would tell patients not to get the vaccine, than yes that is an issue I would understand that would harm your community as a trusted nurse... but could you imagine pressuring your patient into getting vaccinated if they were feeling insecure and not wanting it right away? Saying something like “it’s your duty to your community and the other patients in this hospital to get this vaccine” that would be so unethical ...and seriously that’s what you are doing to your peers? Hmm... I am concerned about a nurse who uses social guilt and shame in an attempt to unethically pressure their community of fellow nurses to receive brand new medical treatments they are currently uncomfortable with.

[NurseBlaq]

4 minutes ago, ohbejoyful said:

I would just say in response to this that healthcare workers are feeling more cautious than disgruntled... most of us just don’t want to immediately take the vaccine or be mandated to take the vaccine right away and want a little time for the *best* evidence of the vaccination’s benefits and risks. We just want the *best* studies with the *most* research which will be coming out over the next year with much larger groups of people receiving the vaccine when it is released. It will open up a true diversity of studies and results not just those of the manufacturers.  That will truly allow healthcare workers the time and real life data to follow the *best* evidence and make a person decision based on that credible scientific data and be able to confidently act on the most accurate evidence based practice that isn’t available now but will be in the near future.

So ...just FYI this isn’t an issue of being against data, science, evidence etc. we just maybe perhaps have a higher standard for data and evidence. Waiting a little bit will allow for this.

Ideally, a healthcare worker whose job it is to educate their patients on community health topics such as regular exercise, not smoking or drinking, eating healthy, healthy sleep habits, keeping stress levels low, immunizations etc should also abide by them, however most don’t practice everything we preach. And it doesn’t impede a nurse’s ability to provide the recommended information, or titrate their patient’s life saving drips, or hold their hand when they are scared before surgery, or dress a wound, or catch a med error etc. It’s your own personal life and you can make your own decisions separate from work and your job title and do just as good of a job as a nurse as someone who follows all of the things that they would educate or promote to patients for their own health. You don’t have to follow every guideline to be a nurse, although your life would be better if you did, it still isn’t your *duty* as a nurse to do those things. Just to put your thought process into perspective when you make a statement like that.

As for the topic of keeping your patients safe, we have PPE, hand washing etc we have been rigorously following all year long that is more than sufficient to keep us and our patients safe as long as we have the right equipment and properly adhere to the policies there is no dilemma regarding needing to be vaccinated to safely care for patients. PPE works, it’s not a 100% effective measure but neither is a vaccine.

If someone said that they would tell patients not to get the vaccine, than yes that is an issue I would understand that would harm your community as a trusted nurse... but could you imagine pressuring your patient into getting vaccinated if they were feeling insecure and not wanting it right away? Saying something like “it’s your duty to your community and the other patients in this hospital to get this vaccine” that would be so unethical ...and seriously that’s what you are doing to your peers? Hmm... I am concerned about a nurse who uses social guilt and shame in an attempt to unethically pressure their community of fellow nurses to receive brand new medical treatments they are currently uncomfortable with.

Very well said!

[ohbejoyful]

Also sorry to macawake as I just asked him why he he keeps nitpicking people’s posts and trying to reason with their thought processes and here I am doing the exact same thing just with an opposing viewpoint.

I just wish more nurses would simply respect their peers personal medical choices in terms of, ” I don’t understand you or agree with you, but it is a personal choice and your right to make that choice... “ and remember most of us aren’t saying that we never want to take the vaccine, but we want some time after it is first released before taking it right away. Mandating the vaccine is of course the employers choice just as it is our to take it. That’s fine. But the judge-mental and unfounded comments that we are poor role models to the community, providing unsafe care, or not in support of evidence based care or science *are* forms of shame and guilting your peers to feel embarrassed and pressured into making a choice they are currently uncomfortable with.

These are the posts that get me responding  a novel long response and nitpicking every detail. So I guess just like I told macawake ...I probably won’t get through to anyone and my efforts are futile. I might as well just stop the rants.

 

 

 

[NurseBlaq]

That's exactly why I stopped. If people want to get it fine, but those of us who don't have that same leeway to not get it, only we're being bashed for it. Anywho, you've made your point, I suggest just letting people say whatever for your own peace of mind because they won't stop. Even if the thread goes dormant someone will reup it just to get conflict brewing again and the cycle will continue.

And I will take my own advice! ?

[toomuchbaloney]

I'm cool with health professionals making choices for themselves regarding vaccines.  One participant in the threads clearly indicated that he didn't educate patients on vaccines or the recommended schedule of immunization...leaving that to the HCP instead.  

[ohbejoyful]

1 minute ago, NurseBlaq said:

That's exactly why I stopped. If people want to get it fine, but those of us who don't have that same leeway to not get it, only we're being bashed for it. Anywho, you've made your point, I suggest just letting people say whatever for your own peace of mind because they won't stop. Even if the thread goes dormant someone will reup it just to get conflict brewing again and the cycle will continue.

LOL so true... I wish we could all find a middle ground with mutual respect.. but this is a topic that is difficult and upsetting to people on both sides ?

[toomuchbaloney]

Who was "bashed" for saying they won't personally accept the vaccine? 

Don't get the vaccine.  Fine.  That's our individual choice that each person has regardless of their education or understanding of the science. 

If people don't attach other opinion, misinformation, incorrect analysis of scientific data, or other controversial thinking to individual choice there likely won't be much uncomfortable discussion. It's the bad science and such that gets a discussion going. 

[ohbejoyful]

6 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Who was "bashed" for saying they won't personally accept the vaccine? 

Don't get the vaccine.  Fine.  That's our individual choice that each person has regardless of their education or understanding of the science. 

If people don't attach other opinion, misinformation, incorrect analysis of scientific data, or other controversial thinking to individual choice there likely won't be much uncomfortable discussion. It's the bad science and such that gets a discussion going. 

For example...

“it’s your duty to get the vaccine right when it comes out”

“Why would you think it’s appropriate to care for patients if your not willing to get the vaccine right when it comes out”

“Nurses who don’t want to get the vaccine right when it comes out probably will refuse to take covid assignments and use it as an excuse”

”disgruntled nurses who don’t feel comfortable taking the vaccine right when it comes out are ignoring evidence based practice”

These appear to be statements that are unethical social guilt and shaming pressure tactics with no effort to respect their peers personal medical choices regarding taking the vaccine right when it comes out. They are unfounded statements, we have safely cared for patients with and without covid by adhering  to PPE protocols and don’t see why that cant continue... we want more evidence so that doesn’t mean we ignore evidence we just want more of it.. it isn’t our duty to be first in line to take a brand new type of vaccine that was fast-tracked right when it comes out and a lot of people are uncomfortable and just want to wait a bit and see what happens without being pressured and judged  by our peers otherwise.

 

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:58 AM, NurseBlaq said:

Why must every one who doesn't want to rush to take the covid vaccine met with shame, a guilt trip, and a whole damn thesis of opinion and NOT facts when the hold up is wanting solid EVIDENCE-BASED facts? This going thread to thread to force-feed someone your thoughts on why they're a bad person and obligated to take the vaccine simply because they're a nurse despite their own personal beliefs to satisfy you and your bourgeois thoughts has to stop! We are entitled to our refusals so stop the shenanigans packaged as friendly debate @macawake. It's become a pattern so it's no longer debate, it's borderline shame and bully tactics. ?

Personally, I certainly agree with the idea to not force someone or shame someone into taking the vaccine and that bullying tactics have to stop. 

At the same time, it is baffling to me that nurses of all people, those that are practically on their hands and knees begging people to mitigate this virus and begging people to believe science are now going "meh, I'm not taking it" when it's been tested on tens of thousands of people and proven to be 90 to 95% effective.  

I don't understand the "I don't want to the be first" because we are not the first, there have been tens of thousands of people taking it first.  It get that there might be some unknowns.  Kind of reminds me that after it was proved how AIDS is spread people still didn't want to be around them "just in case".

This isn't me shaming them, it's me just not quite understanding it.  

[NurseBlaq]

1 hour ago, Tweety said:

Personally, I certainly agree with the idea to not force someone or shame someone into taking the vaccine and that bullying tactics have to stop. 

At the same time, it is baffling to me that nurses of all people, those that are practically on their hands and knees begging people to mitigate this virus and begging people to believe science are now going "meh, I'm not taking it" when it's been tested on tens of thousands of people and proven to be 90 to 95% effective.  

I don't understand the "I don't want to the be first" because we are not the first, there have been tens of thousands of people taking it first.  It get that there might be some unknowns.  Kind of reminds me that after it was proved how AIDS is spread people still didn't want to be around them "just in case".

This isn't me shaming them, it's me just not quite understanding it.  

I already addressed this several times. I don't want it. I don't feel like I need to explain on end why not when I've already addressed my concerns, as have others. If you don't understand it, then fine. I do and since it's my body that's really all that matters and I'm not trying to be facetious or hateful, I'm just tired of the nonsense at this point and done explaining it. Some get it, others don't, and some don't want to get it. We've made it this far so we can continue to wait because we want to and we want more evidence, not just the drug companies word. The end.

[NurseBlaq]

1 hour ago, ohbejoyful said:

For example...

“it’s your duty to get the vaccine right when it comes out”

“Why would you think it’s appropriate to care for patients if your not willing to get the vaccine right when it comes out”

“Nurses who don’t want to get the vaccine right when it comes out probably will refuse to take covid assignments and use it as an excuse”

”disgruntled nurses who don’t feel comfortable taking the vaccine right when it comes out are ignoring evidence based practice”

These appear to be statements that are unethical social guilt and shaming pressure tactics with no effort to respect their peers personal medical choices regarding taking the vaccine right when it comes out. They are unfounded statements, we have safely cared for patients with and without covid by adhering  to PPE protocols and don’t see why that cant continue... we want more evidence so that doesn’t mean we ignore evidence we just want more of it.. it isn’t our duty to be first in line to take a brand new type of vaccine that was fast-tracked right when it comes out and a lot of people are uncomfortable and just want to wait a bit and see what happens without being pressured and judged  by our peers otherwise.

 

I already explained this before when it was brought up the first time but I guess my word wasn't good enough. Here you are explaining it again and I guarantee it will be brought up again as if your post doesn't exist. Just wait for it..... ?