Kern County ER Docs C-19

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It is imperative to watch!

Help me out here.

Full disclosure- I didn't not listen to the whole thing. But, I did listen to a lot of the numbers, and for the sake of discussion, I will assume them accurate.

What I did not here, when talking about Covid was "All of these deaths have occurred despite the massive mitigation efforts". Since that is a huge, if not defining, factor in our number of fatalities, it seems like it should be in the forefront.

Thanks.

Another disclaimer that maybe should be at the end of anything I post.

  • I value your opinion more if it is different from mine- as long as it is based on evidence and known facts.
  • I have known from the beginning that the published death rates were terribly skewed- we focus testing on sick people. Sick people always die more often than healthy people.
  • When we start normalizing, there will likely be an increase in cases. Flattening the curve is all about keeping cases at a manageable level, and plenty of areas can are well under capacity.
  • We cannot afford to save lives at any cost. Now, or ever. We have always maintained some sort of risk/benefit ratio. We can debate where that line lies in this instance, but can not deny that the line exists.

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Specializes in ER.

One thing that strikes me is that we were given the rationale that we would run out of ventilators. In the meantime, treatment protocols have changed. Statistics point to the fact that roughly 90% of people with covid-19 put on ventilators die anyways.

I'm wondering what is happening in the hot spots. Are they still jumping to intubating immediately?

I did a covid-19 crisis RN job in western Washington. They were still sticking to the intubate first mantra when I was there. EMS and the doc would intubate out in the tents. EMS was avoiding intubating in their rigs. The Surge never substantially materialized over there, although I definitely took care of covid-19 patients.

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Are there reputable organizations and experts supporting the video in the OP?

As an ER nurse, I have pretty good faith in ACEP as being more qualified than me to sort out the more scientific details.

Reading betwen the lines here, they seem to imply that there could be some issues with that video.

https://www.acep.org/corona/COVID-19/covid-19-articles/acep-aaem-joint-statement-on-physician-misinformation/

"The American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) and the American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) jointly and emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Messihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical societies and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19. As owners of local urgent care clinics, it appears these two individuals are releasing biased, non-peer reviewed data to advance their personal financial interests without regard for the public’s health.

COVID-19 misinformation is widespread and dangerous. Members of ACEP and AAEM are first-hand witnesses to the human toll that COVID-19 is taking on our communities. ACEP and AAEM strongly advise against using any statements of Drs. Erickson and Messihi as a basis for policy and decision making."

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Specializes in Dialysis.

Last night, I heard on the news that this video was removed because it goes against the WHO and CDC. I can't find it using a general search today. This is censorship at its finest, and raises more red flags than the video itself did!

ETA- I just did another search. There are snippets of video, but the original, full length is buried way down the list. I wish I could remember which channel, CNN or MSNBC reported this. I was flipping through and he told me to turn that garbage off (he's a big FOX fan), only reason I know it had to be one of those 2

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Specializes in ER.

@Hoosier_RN that is troubling. Unfortunately, entities such as Youtube are huge corporations. Their huge profits are dependent on support of the powers-that-be.

The internet used to be a lot more open when it came about. Unfortunately it's now controlled by corporate interests for the most part.

I'm glad that allnurses is not suppressing discussion.

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Specializes in Dialysis.
1 hour ago, hherrn said:

Are there reputable organizations and experts supporting the video in the OP?

As an ER nurse, I have pretty good faith in ACEP as being more qualified than me to sort out the more scientific details.

Reading betwen the lines here, they seem to imply that there could be some issues with that video.

https://www.acep.org/corona/COVID-19/covid-19-articles/acep-aaem-joint-statement-on-physician-misinformation/

"The American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) and the American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) jointly and emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Messihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical societies and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19. As owners of local urgent care clinics, it appears these two individuals are releasing biased, non-peer reviewed data to advance their personal financial interests without regard for the public’s health.

COVID-19 misinformation is widespread and dangerous. Members of ACEP and AAEM are first-hand witnesses to the human toll that COVID-19 is taking on our communities. ACEP and AAEM strongly advise against using any statements of Drs. Erickson and Messihi as a basis for policy and decision making."

I used to rely on various organizations to vet information properly. In this current situation, some organizations have become suspect. Accusations of payoffs, etc. Who truly knows? This pandemic has brought out fear and distrust (both warranted and unwarranted) in many. While I can't say that these 2 Drs are 100% spot on, I can't discredit all of what they say either. I don't think that a 1 size fits all approach all areas, and like nursing care, each plan has to be tailored to the needs of the individual community.

Part of the issue is that some of the information is buried very deep, where most would never to know where to look. The superficial information is biased by whomever is reporting it. The average Joe will just take whatever news is reported to them, or if they look, find the superficial only because of lack of knowledge of further resources. Many don't bother to try to pursue even deeper, or only take the random paragraph that suits their needs to propagate the message that they wish to acknowledge.

I think that there's a big rabbit hole of information that many of us are not seeing or hearing about, because TPTB don't wish for us to. Sadly, we may never know. Just my .02

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51 minutes ago, Hoosier_RN said:

While I can't say that these 2 Drs are 100% spot on, I can't discredit all of what they say either. I don't think that a 1 size fits all approach all areas, and like nursing care, each plan has to be tailored to the needs of the individual community.

Extrapolating numbers from a small amount of data is just a best guess scenario. I've described everything about this pandemic, projections/therapies/statistics, as akin to throwing pasta against the wall to see if it sticks.

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Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
2 hours ago, hherrn said:

Are there reputable organizations and experts supporting the video in the OP?

As an ER nurse, I have pretty good faith in ACEP as being more qualified than me to sort out the more scientific details.

Reading betwen the lines here, they seem to imply that there could be some issues with that video.

https://www.acep.org/corona/COVID-19/covid-19-articles/acep-aaem-joint-statement-on-physician-misinformation/

"The American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) and the American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) jointly and emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Messihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical societies and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19. As owners of local urgent care clinics, it appears these two individuals are releasing biased, non-peer reviewed data to advance their personal financial interests without regard for the public’s health.

COVID-19 misinformation is widespread and dangerous. Members of ACEP and AAEM are first-hand witnesses to the human toll that COVID-19 is taking on our communities. ACEP and AAEM strongly advise against using any statements of Drs. Erickson and Messihi as a basis for policy and decision making."

Thank you for sharing that information. There seems to be sound reason to question the results and stance of these doctors.

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Specializes in Travel, Home Health, Med-Surg.
2 hours ago, Emergent said:

@Hoosier_RN that is troubling. Unfortunately, entities such as Youtube are huge corporations. Their huge profits are dependent on support of the powers-that-be.

The internet used to be a lot more open when it came about. Unfortunately it's now controlled by corporate interests for the most part.

I'm glad that allnurses is not suppressing discussion.

This is so true. Anyone can see this if they "Google" something and then do the same exact search on a different search engine (not affiliated with one of the bigger entites). Google puts things on top that they want you to see, not random etc.

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Specializes in Pediatrics.

So let me get this straight: these guys are NOT currently ER docs yet they are both wearing scrubs that specifically say "Emergency Physician" and the first guys states they are giving "an ER physician" perspective of what is going on?

If they do not currently work in an ER it seems they are deliberately trying to gain some cred by doing those things. Something does not smell right....

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Professor says herd immunity best course.

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2 hours ago, Wuzzie said:

Extrapolating numbers from a small amount of data is just a best guess scenario. I've described everything about this pandemic, projections/therapies/statistics, as akin to throwing pasta against the wall to see if it sticks.

The CDC does the same thing. When there isn't enough raw data they have to make projections. These two are just saying that they believe there are lurking variables in that data that will change the results. In many hospitals, doctors have said that they were instructed to fill out certificates claiming COD to be Corona when those patients had preexisting conditions that put them at high risk. The bottom line is we need more accurate data to come to any conclusion. I don't think their opinions should be dismissed until we know for certain. In fact there are other professionals who would agree with them.

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