It's not my job to pray with you.

dudette10, MSN, RN · Jul 10, 2015

So i am right... People could interpret the OP's post in different ways. You interpreted it in a positive way while i DID NOT. Since we strive for a patient-centered care, i am only telling the OP to be careful with words and actions. If the patient shares the same beliefs as OP, then you can be honest and blunt all day about how praying is not EBP (ok, i am being sarcastic here in case you are going to disasgree with it not being EBP). But if he/she is religious and believes in prayers, you really don't have to elaborate on your beliefs like the OP wrote it. No need to say you don't believe in prayers. Keep it to yourself! The patient obviously believes in prayers... And for many people, prayers give them a sense of hope. Let them be. You don't believe in praying? Then stand there while they pray... It shows respect. While the OP didn't offend you, it does not mean it is acceptable to say the same statement to everyone else. I didn't tell him or her to lie. Nowhere in my post said anything about lying. You can be honest while being tactful. I only said to be careful with words or actions that negate someone else's belief systems. Please don't put words in my mouth :-) Thanks.
PS: I pray a lot. And honestly, anything that negates my sacred beliefs is offending to me. But I choose to filter what i say to others. Filtering is different from lying. We can agree to disagree all day. No need to discuss.

How would you respond to a Buddhist who wants you to chant or a Jewish or Muslim person who wants you to pray with them? (Although, I have to say, only Christians have ever asked me to pray with them...)

Marshall1 · Jul 10, 2015

You chose a school knowing that religion was a HUGE part of it...prestigious or not...so to complain about the religious aspect when you knew going in it had a Cathedral etc seems a bit absurd. If you don't want to pray then don't. Simply excuse yourself. But willingly attending a religious school or one that is obviously heavily involved in relgion than complaining about being suffocated by it..doesn't really make sense.

You are correct..it is not your job to pray w/other students, patients or anyone else..be respectful, excuse yourself and, if a patient needs religious support locate the appropriate person and be done with it. Not a big deal.

allnurses Guide · Jul 10, 2015

I am curious for the people who are religious and don't mind praying with patients - what if the patient believed in a totally different God? Would you still do it? I ask that sincerely, not to mock anyone.

I was born into a Catholic family and educated in the Catholic Parochial School System. I received all of the sacraments except Last Rites but that was mostly to please my parents. I currently consider myself a Pan-Denominational Christian. I actually pray in my car before every shift asking my higher power to guide my hands,mind and heart in caring for my patients. I have been a nurse for 13 years and in that time I have only had one patient ask me to pray with her. I won't go into all the details but she was Catholic and no priest or Chaplin was available. She was in such a state of spiritual distress that it was affecting her physical health. She asked if I would pray with her and I said yes - She started into a Hail Mary and being Catholic I just joined in. It took less than a minute and afterwards the patient was more relaxed and able to benefit from the interventions required to stabelize her condidtion.

Muslims, Jewish and Christians all believe in the same God they just worship in different ways. Eastern religions have different gods and practices but I would never feel uncomfortable standing by respectfully with my head bowed if asked to participate in a faith based practice.

While you don't have to be religious to be a nurse you do have to be prepared to care for the mind, body and spirit of those in your care. Holism is simply practicing with the idea that a person is more than just a biological system. There's no hocus pocus involved.

Hppy

canigraduate · Jul 10, 2015

S/He should not have to be forced to stand at attention while someone is praying. As long as s/he makes sure that the patient gets spiritual support, that is sufficient.

Point taken. I think it is silly to send out for someone to stand there, however, when the nurse could do it and be done with it in less than a minute. Much like I think it is not okay to call for an aide to place a bedpan when you are right there, or call housekeeping for water on the floor when you are right there and can get a towel in seconds, or call maintenance to switch the television's input source.

I am biased about religious interventions and I know it. If someone asks me to do something spiritual for them and it doesn't violate the standard of care, I have no problem doing it. I am a little contemptuous of people who get all giddy and flustered and say they are uncomfortable. In my mind, it's about the patient, not about me. If you need me to spin three times and say "maguffin" before leaving the room, I'm okay with that.

I know other nurses aren't as coldly practical as I am, so if it's something you are truly uncomfortable with, don't do it, but always have a backup plan in mind. Especially if it's the middle of the night and the on call chaplain is sitting vigil in ICU. Maybe you can find another staff member who doesn't mind praying and ask them for help.

canigraduate · Jul 10, 2015

How would you respond to a Buddhist who wants you to chant or a Jewish or Muslim person who wants you to pray with them? (Although, I have to say, only Christians have ever asked me to pray with them...)

I would be honest and say "I am not familiar with your beliefs and I will be happy to help, but you will have to teach me. Would you rather I call a rabbi/(Muslim preacher)?"

Ugh, brain block. What is the word for the guy who runs the mosque?!?

canigraduate · Jul 10, 2015

Lying to clients (which is essentially what we are doing when we pretend to "pray" with clients), even "little white lies," as in this situation, is not good nursing practice and is not building trust with or showing respect to clients. I'm surprised that so many people here are advocating for that.

Stop right there. It is not lying to stand by and be respectful. I wouldn't advocate pretending to pray, just be quiet and be respectful.

It is lying if you say, "Yes, I am Buddhist, too, I will be happy to chant with you," when you go to Mass every Sunday you're off.

If you have to, I guess you can tell the family you are not religious and ask them if they want someone else who shares their religion in your place. In my experience, most patients and families specifically want the nurse they are familiar with to share something that is important to them. I see it as a sign of trust. Hurt feelings and loss of trust are likely to ensue if you do not handle the situation carefully.

RNNPICU, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2015

Stop right there. It is not lying to stand by and be respectful. I wouldn't advocate pretending to pray, just be quiet and be respectful.
It is lying if you say, "Yes, I am Buddhist, too, I will be happy to chant with you," when you go to Mass every Sunday you're off.
If you have to, I guess you can tell the family you are not religious and ask them if they want someone else who shares their religion in your place. In my experience, most patients and families specifically want the nurse they are familiar with to share something that is important to them. I see it as a sign of trust. Hurt feelings and loss of trust are likely to ensue if you do not handle the situation carefully.

This!! If a family of a different faith wants me to be present, it is not lying, me pretending to say prayers of my same faith or different faith is. I feel honored if the family wanted me to stand by, hold their hand, or be there while they prayed.

The line is if they want a prayer over them, that is something that a chaplain can and should do.

This topic is always so touchy. Many people when hospitalized are scared, lonely, frustrated, you name it. If they have a nurse they can trust and feel that connection, there are so many ways you can help them.

allnurses Guide · Jul 10, 2015

I'm just a nursing student and during my clinicals, patients have asked me to join them in prayers. I kindly bow down my head and keep silent until the prayer is finished. I do come from a family of christians and muslims so I'm aware of the practices and know how to respect them. I'm not religious person but I respect people value and beliefs. Religious care is an integral part of health care and as long it within your scope of practice and does not cross professional boundaries then it should be provided.

Perhaps it's my background as a Hospice nurse, but I approach prayer with patients and families perhaps a bit differently than acute care nurses do.
First, I am a Christian, and I do have a belief system that I practice. Many times over the years I have been invited to join prayer circles, especially as patients are transitioning or actively dying.
I look at it this way: they feel comfortable enough with me and trust me enough to be present at a very personal time. I have no problem standing there with them, following along if we belong to the same denomination, standing quietly with my head bowed respectfully if we don't. I've never been asked to lead the prayer, and I really don't expect to be.
I always ask if they would also like the Chaplain to stop by, or if the priest or minister has been notified yet.

I'm a hospice nurse as well. We end up dealing with end-of-life spiritual issues maybe a bit more than normal.

Part of the nursing assessment of any patient is a spiritual assessment. That doesn't mean a debate about who is right and who is wrong.

I think bowing my head in respect is not lying to anyone.

Our family joins together at family events and stands in a circle and holds hands and the patriarch prays. This was always my father-in-law but he recently died so that has passed to my own husband. We have guests who are not believers or don't believe the same way we do but still stand and hold hands and bow their heads with respect.

As to the OP's original comment - if I were asked to specifically pray for someone and I didn't believe, I would gently say that I would get the chaplain or another staff member who did believe to come and pray.

But if I weren't busy, I'd probably stay for the prayer and bow my head with respect.

NightOwl0624 · Jul 11, 2015

I, too, have found that this really calmed a quite confused and combative patient. Night and day difference. But it is because it is what worked for her. I admit, as a protestant, I'm only passingly acquainted with it, but I tried saying it with her to assist in the relaxation.

i should have stated that I knew the patient was Catholic - I don't suppose it would have worked very well with patients of other religions!

Conqueror+, BSN, RN · Jul 11, 2015

I was born into a Catholic family and educated in the Catholic Parochial School System. I received all of the sacraments except Last Rites but that was mostly to please my parents. I currently consider myself a Pan-Denominational Christian. I actually pray in my car before every shift asking my higher power to guide my hands,mind and heart in caring for my patients. I have been a nurse for 13 years and in that time I have only had one patient ask me to pray with her. I won't go into all the details but she was Catholic and no priest or Chaplin was available. She was in such a state of spiritual distress that it was affecting her physical health. She asked if I would pray with her and I said yes - She started into a Hail Mary and being Catholic I just joined in. It took less than a minute and afterwards the patient was more relaxed and able to benefit from the interventions required to stabelize her condidtion.
Muslims, Jewish and Christians all believe in the same God they just worship in different ways. Eastern religions have different gods and practices but I would never feel uncomfortable standing by respectfully with my head bowed if asked to participate in a faith based practice.
While you don't have to be religious to be a nurse you do have to be prepared to care for the mind, body and spirit of those in your care. Holism is simply practicing with the idea that a person is more than just a biological system. There's no hocus pocus involved.
Hppy

Just to clarify they do not. Christians and Jews believe in the same God. Christians believe the messiah has come once and will return a second time. Jews believe the messiah has yet to come. Muslims believe in no messiah and that allah has never begotten a son. Given that the messiah is a pivotal part of jewish and Christian faith it is hard to say that they are the same as islam. As we give spiritually competent care it is important to know some differences in faiths.

Conqueror+, BSN, RN · Jul 11, 2015

This is all good advice! Respect is key! In the U.S. we are facing huge issues related to religious rights. Legalization of same sex marriage has sparked heated debate on the part of some Christians who for lack of a better explanation want to keep the right to discriminate against gays but choose to be ok with Divorce, and other supposed biblical principles that apparently are cherry picked selectively viewed as important. Luckily the vast majority of Christians are VERY respectful and understand that tolerance goes both ways :)

You stated in a post after this one that you have no desire to debate but you use some very negative and inflammatory words in this post. You also make alot of assumptions. Just because I don't agree with someones choices does not mean that I am discriminating against them. I disagree with them. BIG difference. I can give great care to you without agreeing with you or playing along with your beliefs. Kind of like what everyone is saying to the OP. Perhaps that is only a one way street.

PMFB-RN, RN · Jul 11, 2015

I am an atheist. In my career I have seen how much comfort people's religion brings them (or causes turmoil, depending on the situation). Working in trauma we often care for patients and their families facing huge, life changing situation in the middle of the night with no preparation. I have been asked to pray with my patients a number of times. My job is to bring them comfort. If praying makes them more comfortable then I have zero problem with it. I asked a wonderful catholic priest / hospital Chaplin to help me come up with a couple prayers that I have memorized.

Sure _I_ know we might as well be praying to Spiderman, but it's irrelevant. What matters is how it makes my patient feel.