It's not my job to pray with you.

AlphaM · Jul 10, 2015

This is all good advice! Respect is key! In the U.S. we are facing huge issues related to religious rights. Legalization of same sex marriage has sparked heated debate on the part of some Christians who for lack of a better explanation want to keep the right to discriminate against gays but choose to be ok with Divorce, and other supposed biblical principles that apparently are cherry picked selectively viewed as important. Luckily the vast majority of Christians are VERY respectful and understand that tolerance goes both ways :)

nursingaround1 · Jul 10, 2015

This is all good advice! Respect is key! In the U.S. we are facing huge issues related to religious rights. Legalization of same sex marriage has sparked heated debate on the part of some Christians who for lack of a better explanation want to keep the right to discriminate against gays but choose to be ok with Divorce, and other supposed biblical principles that apparently are cherry picked selectively viewed as important. Luckily the vast majority of Christians are VERY respectful and understand that tolerance goes both ways :)

What I find interesting is who gets to decide what is right and wrong? If there is no God, then it's as Richard Dawkins (famous militant atheist) says; 'there is no good or evil, just blind, pitiless indifference.' Maybe you think it 'feels' right to allow something, but basing morals, and eventually laws on something because it 'feels' right is a very dangerous place to be. What if another country 'feels' it's right not to allow gay marriage, who are we to say that what they do, in their society, is right or wrong? What if another country thinks it's okay to euthanize disabled infants when they're born? If we're merely animals, dancing along to our randomly mutated genes, who are we as a society to say this is right or wrong? I don't just feel, but I know this is wrong. But why do I feel it's wrong if we're just animals? Could it be that we're made in the image of a moral being?

You seen, we're disasters at figuring out right or, good or evil. If we do 199 good deeds in one day, and 1 bad deed, that one bad deed will keep us awake at night. As soon as we begin to grasp good or evil, we start judging ourselves and others, on how well they navigate good or evil.

NightOwl0624 · Jul 10, 2015

My hospital is public (Canada). We are not required to pray with patients. I had a patient ask me to pray with her yesterday. It makes me uncomfortable. I dont believe in prayer, and faking it would be dishonest. As far as "spiritual support", I dont think you need to be a personally spiritual person to do this. Simply be kind and call the appropriate person. I respect my patients right to their own beliefs. I do t feel I should have to participate in those beliefs to be a supportive nurse.

I'm not really clear why you are so upset. Just because the patient asked you to pray? Or did something else happen?

It sounds like you are a kind and respectful nurse, but to me your tone sounds harsh. I am religious (Catholic) and would be uncomfortable with these situations, too. I have never been asked to pray with a patient in my 6 years as a nurse. However, I did start reciting "Hail Marys" with a very demented patient once, and it really seemed to calm her down :)

AlphaM · Jul 10, 2015

What I find interesting is who gets to decide what is right and wrong? If there is no God, then it's as Richard Dawkins (famous militant atheist) says; 'there is no good or evil, just blind, pitiless indifference.' Maybe you think it 'feels' right to allow something, but basing morals, and eventually laws on something because it 'feels' right is a very dangerous place to be. What if another country 'feels' it's right not to allow gay marriage, who are we to say that what they do, in their society, is right or wrong? What if another country thinks it's okay to euthanize disabled infants when they're born? If we're merely animals, dancing along to our randomly mutated genes, who are we as a society to say this is right or wrong? I don't just feel, but I know this is wrong. But why do I feel it's wrong if we're just animals? Could it be that we're made in the image of a moral being?
You seen, we're disasters at figuring out right or, good or evil. If we do 199 good deeds in one day, and 1 bad deed, that one bad deed will keep us awake at night. As soon as we begin to grasp good or evil, we start judging ourselves and others, on how well they navigate good or evil.

I rather not get into a religious debate here. I will answer your question by pointing out that up until fairly recently in U.S. history an interracial marriage was illegal, the basis for this was the Holy Bible. In today's world having gay people marry affects my life and my own heterosexual marriage by ZERO. Spare me your bible morality, maybe I will listen to you the day you decide to actually follow the bible 100% without cherry picking the parts you want to follow. My whole point is that we should be tolerant and respect each other's beliefs or lack thereof.

greenerpastures · Jul 10, 2015

Abigail 1509 - Did you have something to say about what I'd said - because your entire post was nothing but my original comment word for word.

johsonmichelle · Jul 10, 2015

I'm just a nursing student and during my clinicals, patients have asked me to join them in prayers. I kindly bow down my head and keep silent until the prayer is finished. I do come from a family of christians and muslims so I'm aware of the practices and know how to respect them. I'm not religious person but I respect people value and beliefs. Religious care is an integral part of health care and as long it within your scope of practice and does not cross professional boundaries then it should be provided.

benegesserit · Jul 10, 2015

While that's true, if you know that you're attending a Catholic school, I don't think you should be surprised that prayer and a cathedral are all part of that college experience.

At the time my post was made, ANMpreN had not actually stated that the school was Catholic or religious, simply that many of his/her classmates are Catholic. Maybe it's context from other threads? I do agree that it makes sense to take a school's religious requirements into account when making that choice.

Wow this is all news to me--I didn't know nurses could discuss religion with patients (somewhat) openly. Sorry if this is a foolish question but since we're on this topic--let's say a patient and nurse happen to be the same religion. If the patient asks the nurse to pray with/over them and the nurse is comfortable, is this actually ok to do this instead of getting the chaplain? Sounds like some of you all have done this but I just wanted clarification. Unless it goes by hospital/facility policy.
I'm used to keeping religion and work strictly separate, unless the job is in a religious setting where it's expected... I guess I'm filled with incredulity because my previous position was so...well religion couldn't really be mentioned otherwise it could be seen as offensive talk.

Supporting a patient's spirituality is generally considered a part of nursing care. As long as sharing your own beliefs is supportive and respectful of the patient's needs, I've never heard of a problem with it, though I'm sure there are exceptions, such as public school nurses or when there are major psych issues involved.

I know one night, I went so above & beyond, busted my butt all night practically, to get the on-call chaplain for a patient at end of life. Once he finally arrived, the daughter all but threw him out. I usually have pretty tough skin, but I felt her reaction was very rude, because he was not the appropriate person to deliver last rites. In that small, rural community, a catholic priest is not the easiest to get, especially at 0230.

Well, people are often not on their best behavior when their loved ones are dying, and last rites really are a big deal - a generic chaplain really isn't a substitute. I know you meant the best, but this is an example of not taking the patient's (or family's, in this case) individual spiritual needs into account.

I don't mean that harshly. I've had times where I've tried my absolute hardest to meet what I think the patient's needs are, and they're not happy because it wasn't exactly what they wanted, and it's definitely frustrating and depressing to go all-out for someone and only get yelled at for it.

I don't believe we owe patients anything more than helping them to connect with the right person to meet their needs. If nurses are supposed to be praying with patients, then why even have a hospital chaplain?

If nurses sometimes help ADLs, why do we have CNAs?

It is generally going to be ok (depending on facility policy) to pray with a patient if mutually desirable. They aren't obligated to. And standing by silently while someone prays, saying a simple prayer, or a brief discussion of beliefs that a nurse is likely to have time for is not necessarily going to adequately meet the patient's spiritual needs, which is where the chaplain comes in.

Jensmom7, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2015

Perhaps it's my background as a Hospice nurse, but I approach prayer with patients and families perhaps a bit differently than acute care nurses do.

First, I am a Christian, and I do have a belief system that I practice. Many times over the years I have been invited to join prayer circles, especially as patients are transitioning or actively dying.

I look at it this way: they feel comfortable enough with me and trust me enough to be present at a very personal time. I have no problem standing there with them, following along if we belong to the same denomination, standing quietly with my head bowed respectfully if we don't. I've never been asked to lead the prayer, and I really don't expect to be.

I always ask if they would also like the Chaplain to stop by, or if the priest or minister has been notified yet.

LaneyB · Jul 10, 2015

I find the asking to pray thing a bit odd. I was a pediatric bone marrow transplant nurse and as you can imagine that brings out the religion in some families, but I was never asked to pray with them. Maybe it is different in other parts of the country. I agree with standing quietly, but I do not bow my head. I have always told my children they must be respectful of Christians but they don't have to pretend to be one of them.

I am curious for the people who are religious and don't mind praying with patients - what if the patient believed in a totally different God? Would you still do it? I ask that sincerely, not to mock anyone.

nursingaround1 · Jul 10, 2015

I rather not get into a religious debate here. I will answer your question by pointing out that up until fairly recently in U.S. history an interracial marriage was illegal, the basis for this was the Holy Bible. In today's world having gay people marry affects my life and my own heterosexual marriage by ZERO. Spare me your bible morality, maybe I will listen to you the day you decide to actually follow the bible 100% without cherry picking the parts you want to follow. My whole point is that we should be tolerant and respect each other's beliefs or lack thereof.

You are making lots of assumptions. I don't give a view either way, but i do ask how do we know right from wrong. I am not sure what bits of the bible you think I've cherry picked as I have not mentioned any. Why do you assume that I am using the bible for anything. All I'm trying to get people to see is that deciding on morals and right and wrong is not so easy.

AlphaM · Jul 10, 2015

You are making lots of assumptions. I don't give a view either way, but i do ask how do we know right from wrong. I am not sure what bits of the bible you think I've cherry picked as I have not mentioned any. Why do you assume that I am using the bible for anything. All I'm trying to get people to see is that deciding on morals and right and wrong is not so easy.

Ok sorry if I made assumptions, it was hard to decipher your post. My whole point is that we should all be tolerant, believers and non believers alike.

caregiver1977 · Jul 10, 2015

I just want to point out that there is a difference between praying aloud in behalf of a patient and standing silently while someone else prays. I don't think a nurse should be forced to do either, IMO. I don't pledge allegiance to the US flag, or any flag. I would hate it if my job forced me.