Do you need all those degrees?

[dnsonthego]

Where I work, we have a trend of nurses obtaining multiple degrees after obtaining basic nursing training and their RN license. At a management meeting this issue came up about why nurses are going for all these degrees (MSN, MPH, MBA, MPA, MHA, DNP, JD, Dr.P.H. etc.). I have colleagues that have two or three graduate degrees. I frequently see these degreed nurses working in staff, charge or lower level non clinical work (case management/discharge planning). The degree(s) did not get them far from the bedside.

An attending physician made a point that being a manager or charge nurse does not require an MBA degree. Another doctor stated that his son works at a Fortune 100 company in a significant job with a bachelor level education.

The impression I got is that the attendees saw this degree mania in nursing as silly and wasteful. The word wasteful was used as the facility provides tuition reimbursement.

Another comment was made that these degrees are mostly online degrees or from low standard/open enrollment schools. There appears to be true to this statement.

A department head then said why can't nurses be happy to be a nurse. If they want to be managers or executive, move on so that nurses who want to nurse can be at the bedside. He then discussed a nurse colleague who has two management degrees who is a bedside nurse and a nursing supervisor who has four graduate degrees (she has a master's in nursing to be an adult health nurse practitioner, a master's in public health, a master's in business and a master's in community health). The sad part is that the 4 graduate degree nursing supervisor could not prepare a report detailing an major event that occurred when she was on duty (she asked me to rewrite what she had written so as to not be embarrassed by her poor language skills--English is her second language). About twenty years ago I worked with a nurse who went to school to get a master's degree in journalism. She wanted out of nursing and saw journalism as her ticket. Unfortunately, when she graduated she could not locate a job that paid. She did not investigate the need to pay her dues in the competitive field of journalism. End result, she ended up staying in nursing. The impression we had of her then was she was a nice lady who was misguided and did not investigate what awaits graduates of her program. I hope by now she had paid off her student loans.

Back to the discussion...I did not respond about this issue during the meeting as I myself have mixed feelings about getting degrees especially since I do not see the degree holder having benefited from the education. Writing skills are still poor, professional presentation and presence is lacking and analytic skills are weak. When I interact with my degreed colleagues, I think to myself, what has all this schooling taught you?

In my day, you entered nursing via a diploma or associated degree and learned your trade on the floor. A degree (BSN or MSN)was needed to be a nursing director or nursing professor. I really never understood why nurses undertook going for these degrees since they stayed in nursing anyway. I know a few nurses over the years who thought that an MBA/MPH would get them into corporate America/government position only to be heartbroken that the degree got them nowhere. Having an MBA in marketing or Finance really isn't applicable to nursing even at the highest levels. Adding to this is the fact that if you do not practice these fields or specialty areas, you are not competent but rather have a degree as a trophy.

As for the DNP, I understand the logic of wanting to be like pharmacy and physical therapy, but even with a clinical doctorate degree, they are still a pharmacist or a physical therapist. If it hasn't elevated these other professions, what makes us think it will elevate us? Where I work, the culture of not calling these degree holders "doctor" prevails.

Anyway, I wanted to hear what other nurses think about the degree proliferation in nursing. Do you think this is a good trend or is this just breeding more discontented nurses who will continue to dream about careers they will never have?

[BlueDevil,DNP, DNP, RN]

The OP addresses a number of points; I’m going to tackle them randomly.

Short answer, do they need them? No. Will they be better off with them? Of course.

1. You may not need a MBA to be a unit manager, but I suspect the best unit managers have advanced education pertaining to accounting and finance, as well as leadership. The more expertise they have the better prepared they will be to benefit their team.

2. Due respect, physicians don’t know anything about nursing education and have little or nothing to offer of value on the subject of what a nurse should or should not study so as to optimize his or her skills as a nurse manager. I don’t know why anyone would consult a physician on this subject at all. For example, it would be like consulting a nurse about how to structure residency programs or to write step exam questions.

3. Quality education is never wasted, but I agree diploma mills are an embarrassment to us all. Your friend’s journalism degree= not a waste in any sense of he word, where as a BSN from a diploma mill = total waste, IMO.

4. “Why can't nurses be happy to be a nurse.” This question is grossly offensive.

5. As for the DNP, the OP comments indicate poor understanding of a DNP degree. This is common. The DNP has nothing to do with being “like pharmacy and physical therapy.” “what makes us think it will elevate us?” It has, it does, one clinician at a time. The point of a clinical doctorate is to improve the clinician, not to make some political statement on behalf of the profession. The comment regarding being called Doctor is so silly I’m not even going to address it except to assure readers that no one goes through the arduous process of DNP program just to be called Doctor, lol.

6. Do you think this is a good trend or is this just breeding more discontented nurses who will continue to dream about careers they will never have?

It is an excellent trend. The point of advanced education is nurses can have any career that they want if they are willing to go out and get it. I have my own, independent, completely autonomous practice. I run my business the way I want to. I made my career exactly what I wanted it to be. Anyone willing to work hard can achieve the same outcome. Or they can sit in meetings like the one the OP refers to grumbling, feeling sorry for themselves and begrudging more successful colleagues. The resources and potential are available to everyone. It’s all up to the individual.

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

I really doubt that the majority of MA prepared nurses are staying at the bedside for personal fulfillment! I think many either were unable to transition to the career/job they had hoped for or found out the pay wasn't adequate to live on and decided to just stay bedside. It is ironic that hospital management is concerned over too many people going back to school, but they obviously realize it is not cost effective to pay for education that is really not necessary for their nurses. Going back to school for personal fulfillment is a pretty expensive hobby, and I think a person should consider whether they can actually afford it before signing up for more school! Society pushes more schooling as the answer to career advancement because it doesn't want to face the reality that what is needed is more unions and more jobs that pay a living wage. But the end result is a bunch of over educated, indebted people stuck in low wage jobs. Nursing is one of the few jobs out there that pays a living wage and that is why so many people are jumping on the nurse bandwagon! I think many of the people going back to school may live to regret it when they are struggling to pay back the student loans and realize they don't have the money they need for life and for retirement!

[gettingbsn2msn, MSN, RN]

In a free country it should not matter how one chooses to spend their money! Some may want a bigger house and some may choose to go for their dream of a MBA.

[Gentleman_nurse, MSN]

A former professor said to me "Some students go to college to get a college education. Others to get a college degree. There is a difference."

[BrandonLPN, LPN]

I think it's a little naive to say that four year degrees in the likes of journalism, fashion design, philosophy, etc. are never a waste. Of course they can be a waste. They can be a huge waste of time and money. For the vast majority of grads, these degrees do not result in gainful employment. How can that not be a waste?

Who are these people investing in four-year degrees simply to "broaden their horizons" or "find themselves"? Trust-fund babies? Not everyone is independently wealthy. For the average Joe a bachelors in most liberal arts studies will make him the most well-rounded fry-cook in a paper hat.

A BSN from an online diploma mill will result in better job opportunities than a four-year journalism degree from a respected university. I'm not saying that's right or nice or pretty, but it's true.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

It is a fallacy to say that an excellent clinical manager also needs to be able to flush a hep lock or differentiate between different types of vascular access devices (to use a previous example). Or that s/he could never be an excellent manager without that knowledge. An excellent clinical manager needs to know and trust the staff and manage them as the resources they are. The two best managers I ever had in my entire working life (from mumblemumble years ag to within the last eight) were both brilliant, neither bedside-current, and neither was the least bit shy about hiring people with more expertise in aspects of our core businesses (one bedside, one more business-oriented). And they ran, respectively, the best critical care unit and the best business unit staffed with the best nurses I ever had the privilege to know.

However, I agree a hundred percent about the bogus degrees being handed out in so may of these "programs" today. I swear, I never would have made it through my freshman year in college as illiterate as some of these folks are when they finish their "BSN degree." And you really don't want to get me started on these "masters programs" that turn out people who don't know the difference between a piece of research and a Survey Monkey 10-question push-poll posted on an anonymous internet message board to collect "data."

Doubtless it has something to do with the quality of the faculty who approve such illiterate and uncritical dreck in the first place. I told one of them my MN faculty would have laughed them right out into the street -- the undergrads at that school couldn't get away with it, much less "master's" candidates. She told me I could come teach in her for-profit school-- it was easy, they didn't ask much, and it wouldn't put a dent in my day. I hung up on her.

The result is that cheapening of the concept of the degree-- if any fool with money can get one now, it makes the rest of us look stupid too. When I got my BS, and started my MN 7 years later, fewer than 5% of the nurses in the country had them.We were required to do original research. It makes me just furious to think that potential clients and colleagues would sneer at that based on what we see today i some of these programs.

So the answer is no, real education is never wasted, and is a force for good, and is a force for increased competence and progress. When you see someone with a string of letters after the name and who can't write a coherent sentence, make a cohesive argument, or critique a study, though, you have someone before you who is not truly educated. Period.

As for professional certifications, there are significant differences between certificates and certifications. Part of a real education should be learning the difference; judging by this thread there are a number of people who don't get that, either. I've got a fair number of real ones that each, should anyone care to check, required prerequisites of thousands of hours of practice before taking a multi-hour examination vetted by an independent entity, submission of expert work product (in at least two cases), and recertification dependent on continued work in the fields. Contrast this to a certificate granted by a course after an examination given by the course promoter, with the only qualification being paying for and sitting through the course and taking the exam on the last day (or now, online). People who care to know the difference, do. Those who don't, well, who cares what they think? Not I, but I grant there's a lot of education needed on that score too.

While I agree with you on most things my dear friend.....I just think that bedside experience makes one a better manager.... I just do. I don't think that just because one has a graduate degree makes one a better nurse or boss.

I think that the proliferation of these drive through programs (and we both know which online school I'm referring to) is NOT improving nursing education and that it is the quality of the education and not the quantity of education that counts. The boss in my previous post is a brilliant person and for the most part a brilliant boss .....I liked her very much...but there were times she drove me to distraction with her book learning but her clinical ineptness was detrimental to her credibility.

I don't believe that the possession of graduate studies and competency are mutually inclusive and I am concerned about the current generation of APN's (and other graduating nurses) graduating and the quality of that education.

I have held MANY ANCC ENA "certification" board examinations in my area of expertise that can fill an alphabet....all of which are gone or retired because I no longer work. I do resent however, the mentality, by some, that without a certain degree in my possession my competency is questionable.

I am concerned about the watering down on nursing education by many of these for profit pop up programs that offer minimal education for the maximum price.

In nursing it is quality and not quantity that really counts.

[TU RN, DNP, CRNA]

I entered the nursing profession as a BSN and I would just like to personally testify that not all college graduate nurses are the lacking common sense, bad at bedside nursing, afraid of BMs, non-traditional nursing type of people. We are products of our environments who see the shift hospitals are taking towards hiring new RNs. My rooms are some of the cleanest. My patients all get into the chair. They all get washed. They all get turned and are offered assistance with elimination q2h. I talk to them and establish good, trusting relationships. By not pursuing further education after nursing school you're denying that nursing is a "profession" and confirming that it is a "trade" or "job" by modern standards. If you older nurses are cool with that, fine, but I aim to be a professional. A professional who wipes butts. And proud.

[blondy2061h, MSN, RN]

This has to be the only profession where being more educated is looked down upon.

Hard to keep well educated people as submissive little servants. I can see the hospital not wanting to provide tuition reimbursement for diploma mills. They should set standards on the schools they'll pay for, then.

[ThePrincessBride, MSN, RN, NP]

I'm of the opinion that quality is more important than quantity, and the person makes the degree useful, not the other way around.

That being said, this "overeducation" approach is happening across the board in many different professions, not just nursing. Many jobs that didn't even require a high school diploma fifty years ago are now expecting four year degrees, but wages have stagnated. If nursing were to make a raise the level of entry, then those raised standards need to be reflected in nursing wages substantially, which I support going into this profession. But that won't happen.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

While I agree with you on most things my dear friend.....I just think that bedside experience makes one a better manager.... I just do.

I agree completely. While I certainly do not expect my manager to be currently bedside competent, I do expect then to have "been there, done that". A manager NEEDS to have working night shifts and spent holidays away from their families to keep the unit staffed. They NEED to have dealt with crazy family members, they NEED to have made hard choices about priorities and time management. A manager NEEDS to have worked short staffed and been mandated for another 4 hours at the end of her 12 hour shift. The manager MUST have dealt with a crashing patient. A manager who has never experienced these things can not possibly relate to what is going on in her unit and what her nurses are faced with.

After years of the best possible unit manager my hospital recently hired a highly degreed nurse manager who has no acute care experience at all to manage the RRT and a critical care unit.

She is having a rough time of it. Nobody takes her seriously. You would not believe the naivety of the questions she asks. Yes boss it really is important that we have easy and ready access to D50 and Narcan. (eyes roll)

[netglow, ASN, RN]

PMFB-RN, Geeeez!

Your new manager can be labeled A FOOL, as she has demonstrated a complete lack of comprehension - even at the most basic level, of what that job requires of her - that she would dare to apply for the position.

This all makes me sick....

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Those dumb nurses and their education! How dare their want to further their education, even if it is solely for personal reasons that has nothing to do with their professional career.

I am all for furthering education. However the topic isn't furthering education or nurses who further their education. Read the OP. There is no concern about nurses furthering their education. The discussion if about nurses obtaining useless degrees from questionable diploma mills. My point was that it is evidence of and a symptom of the wide spread lack of self esteem in nursing.

Someone has to be really insecure to want to become the first of their family to earn a college degree. Can you imagine the insecurity of the nurse who wants to be an example to his or her children and earn a degree to help inspire them and show them what one can achieve through hard work?

I am wondering if you even read my message you replied to? If so I can not imagine who you are saying things like this.

Everyone knows that the only type of nursing worth a damn is bedside nursing. Only dummies would want to get into informatics, counseling, community health or any of the other specialities not in a hospital at the bedside and that many times require a BSN. The only nurse is the hospital bedside nurse right?

What a strange position for you to take. We will have to agree to disagree. I would agree that a solid base of bedside experience would benefit nurses in all those fields. I can't agree with you that the nurses who don't work at the bedside are not worth a damn.