Where I work, we have a trend of nurses obtaining multiple degrees after obtaining basic nursing training and their RN license. At a management meeting this issue came up about why nurses are going for all these degrees (MSN, MPH, MBA, MPA, MHA, DNP, JD, Dr.P.H. etc.). I have colleagues that have two or three graduate degrees. I frequently see these degreed nurses working in staff, charge or lower level non clinical work (case management/discharge planning). The degree(s) did not get them far from the bedside.
An attending physician made a point that being a manager or charge nurse does not require an MBA degree. Another doctor stated that his son works at a Fortune 100 company in a significant job with a bachelor level education.
The impression I got is that the attendees saw this degree mania in nursing as silly and wasteful. The word wasteful was used as the facility provides tuition reimbursement.
Another comment was made that these degrees are mostly online degrees or from low standard/open enrollment schools. There appears to be true to this statement.
A department head then said why can't nurses be happy to be a nurse. If they want to be managers or executive, move on so that nurses who want to nurse can be at the bedside. He then discussed a nurse colleague who has two management degrees who is a bedside nurse and a nursing supervisor who has four graduate degrees (she has a master's in nursing to be an adult health nurse practitioner, a master's in public health, a master's in business and a master's in community health). The sad part is that the 4 graduate degree nursing supervisor could not prepare a report detailing an major event that occurred when she was on duty (she asked me to rewrite what she had written so as to not be embarrassed by her poor language skills--English is her second language). About twenty years ago I worked with a nurse who went to school to get a master's degree in journalism. She wanted out of nursing and saw journalism as her ticket. Unfortunately, when she graduated she could not locate a job that paid. She did not investigate the need to pay her dues in the competitive field of journalism. End result, she ended up staying in nursing. The impression we had of her then was she was a nice lady who was misguided and did not investigate what awaits graduates of her program. I hope by now she had paid off her student loans.
Back to the discussion...I did not respond about this issue during the meeting as I myself have mixed feelings about getting degrees especially since I do not see the degree holder having benefited from the education. Writing skills are still poor, professional presentation and presence is lacking and analytic skills are weak. When I interact with my degreed colleagues, I think to myself, what has all this schooling taught you?
In my day, you entered nursing via a diploma or associated degree and learned your trade on the floor. A degree (BSN or MSN)was needed to be a nursing director or nursing professor. I really never understood why nurses undertook going for these degrees since they stayed in nursing anyway. I know a few nurses over the years who thought that an MBA/MPH would get them into corporate America/government position only to be heartbroken that the degree got them nowhere. Having an MBA in marketing or Finance really isn't applicable to nursing even at the highest levels. Adding to this is the fact that if you do not practice these fields or specialty areas, you are not competent but rather have a degree as a trophy.
As for the DNP, I understand the logic of wanting to be like pharmacy and physical therapy, but even with a clinical doctorate degree, they are still a pharmacist or a physical therapist. If it hasn't elevated these other professions, what makes us think it will elevate us? Where I work, the culture of not calling these degree holders "doctor" prevails.
Anyway, I wanted to hear what other nurses think about the degree proliferation in nursing. Do you think this is a good trend or is this just breeding more discontented nurses who will continue to dream about careers they will never have?
I have an MSN plus two post MSN certificates. I use them daily and got them in order to make myself more marketable in a tight economy as I got older. It's worked for me.
The business part of medicine is a reality and IMHO all nurses need to know the bottom line.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Oh, Esme I would never dream of considering another nurse (or human being) inferior. To me it's not a matter of inferiority/superiority. just different paths chosen. I'd be a fool if I didn't think that someone with 30 years of experience didn't have a lot to teach me.
I don't know you Esme, but I've read enough of your posts to feel absolutely certain that you don't shy away from responsibility. You as a nurse are every bit as responsible for your patients as an MD and have no doubt that you have assumed that responsibilty.
In my opinion the difference between an MD and a nurse is the area of responsibility, not the amount/degree of responsibilty we have.
I know you wouldn't......There are some who believe ADNs have an inferior education. I do believe that in the greed department.....their have been the development of inferior programs which are damaging nursing in general....graduates are not graduating with the skills necessary and hospitals are not orienting them...it's sad all around.
I happen to have my BSN in addition to every certification under the sun....gotten MUCH later after graduating with a ASN from an intense University Program many moons ago. Nurses were considered for their expertise and performance...not the degrees and college debt they have. I was a Director of Inpatient Services for Critical care/Emergency Services when my facility paid because they wanted their managers to have at least a BSN....from an online program which I felt just writing papers added nothing to my ability to lead.
I have also taught and lectured nursing programs ADN and BSN programs which I no longer qualify to do for I lack a degree. Suddenly I am unqualified so my expertise is wasted......so I use it here. I was highly offended by my future boss when she said I have no ambition she really couldn't nurse her way out of a paper bag.....but could quote evidence based practice verbatim.......that is something that boggles my mind. NO ambition? I have had an amazing career without a BSN and certainly without a masters degree. When I graduated NP were at the BSN level.
I do think nursing does need to keep up with the times....I think we need one level entry if only to stop this debate I have listened to for 35 years. I am not against education. I am against leaving what nursing is all about in the process.
I honestly don't care why people get degrees. It's their choice. As for me, I really don't care about getting a BSN. I only want it because I don't want my ADN to keep me from getting a job as a Bedside nurse. Hospitals are leaning towards having BSNs so I need to get mine.
Specializes in OR, Nursing Professional Development.
I am in the process of getting my MSN with a focus in education. I fully intend to remain at the bedside despite that degree, but add a part-time faculty position. For me, it's about personal satisfaction and planning for the future when I may need that advanced degree to find a position outside of bedside nursing when my physical ability cannot keep up with the job requirements. More education is never a bad thing; some people choose to get further formal education through advanced degrees while others utilize continuing education options. However, I will agree that something needs to be done about the diploma mills that are granting a piece of paper rather than a true degree. Some of the colleges that are for-profit will admit almost anybody with a pulse, but students still have to do the work and earn the degree. The school I attend does have liberal admission, but I've found the program to be quite challenging, rigorous, and educational.
It isn't just degree proliferation. It's also certification proliferation from greedy "credentialing" organizations. I am convinced that there is a lot of fraud within that industry.
These degrees and certifications serve to make people feel like they are building a stronger resume and make organizations look better by fielding more certified nurses, but does having a certification actually signify that you are a better nurse because of them? I've seen a couple really bad nurses become certified in the same specialty that I am certified in. I've seen some BSN nurses who can't differentiate between the words "to" and "too." I find that both sad and hilarious at the same time.
This is not the only field experiencing this trend. Gone are the days where you stuck with your job until your death bed. People have longer life expectancies and higher education is easier to obtain. People are starting to try to wear hats in several different trades, partly because we all seen to have ADD, and partly for protection in this economy. I became a nurse after many years of teaching, which wasn't even my field of study. At a commencement ceremony I heard a the president of a large state university say that the millenials will have three different careers (not jobs, careers) in their lifetime. A teacher I know is moving on to pharmacy school, a lawyer is switching gears... I don't think we're alone here.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Uh, the OP sounds like she is unaware of nursing's severe self esteem problem. Degree inflation, and nurses acquiring useless degrees, is merely a symptom (and evidence of) nursing's low self esteem.
I used to not really mind these types, as long as they did their work. Now however a bunch of them have attained leadership positions and they won't be satisfied until all the good bedside nurses, whose only ambition is to take great care of their patients then go home to their families with their paycheck, are driven out of nursing and are replaced with BSN, MSN, DNP RNs who may, or may not be good bedside nurses.
Uh, the OP sounds like she is unaware of nursing's severe self esteem problem. Degree inflation, and nurses acquiring useless degrees, is merely a symptom (and evidence of) nursing's low self esteem.
I used to not really mind these types, as long as they did their work. Now however a bunch of them have attained leadership positions and they won't be satisfied until all the good bedside nurses, whose only ambition is to take great care of their patients then go home to their families with their paycheck, are driven out of nursing and are replaced with BSN, MSN, DNP RNs who may, or may not be good bedside nurses.
Those dumb nurses and their education! How dare their want to further their education, even if it is solely for personal reasons that has nothing to do with their professional career.
Someone has to be really insecure to want to become the first of their family to earn a college degree. Can you imagine the insecurity of the nurse who wants to be an example to his or her children and earn a degree to help inspire them and show them what one can achieve through hard work?
Everyone knows that the only type of nursing worth a damn is bedside nursing. Only dummies would want to get into informatics, counseling, community health or any of the other specialities not in a hospital at the bedside and that many times require a BSN. The only nurse is the hospital bedside nurse right?
These dumb nurses and their fancy pancy college edu-ma-katin are ruining the profession.
I don't begrudge other nurses getting more education. Especially when it sets a nurse apart in the job search. Any nurse who has to defend the departmental income statement or balance sheet to the CFO knows what I mean. My most beneficial degree aside from my ADN has been my degree in social work.
It is a fallacy to say that an excellent clinical manager also needs to be able to flush a hep lock or differentiate between different types of vascular access devices (to use a previous example). Or that s/he could never be an excellent manager without that knowledge. An excellent clinical manager needs to know and trust the staff and manage them as the resources they are. The two best managers I ever had in my entire working life (from mumblemumble years ag to within the last eight) were both brilliant, neither bedside-current, and neither was the least bit shy about hiring people with more expertise in aspects of our core businesses (one bedside, one more business-oriented). And they ran, respectively, the best critical care unit and the best business unit staffed with the best nurses I ever had the privilege to know.
However, I agree a hundred percent about the bogus degrees being handed out in so may of these "programs" today. I swear, I never would have made it through my freshman year in college as illiterate as some of these folks are when they finish their "BSN degree." And you really don't want to get me started on these "masters programs" that turn out people who don't know the difference between a piece of research and a Survey Monkey 10-question push-poll posted on an anonymous internet message board to collect "data."
Doubtless it has something to do with the quality of the faculty who approve such illiterate and uncritical dreck in the first place. I told one of them my MN faculty would have laughed them right out into the street -- the undergrads at that school couldn't get away with it, much less "master's" candidates. She told me I could come teach in her for-profit school-- it was easy, they didn't ask much, and it wouldn't put a dent in my day. I hung up on her.
The result is that cheapening of the concept of the degree-- if any fool with money can get one now, it makes the rest of us look stupid too. When I got my BS, and started my MN 7 years later, fewer than 5% of the nurses in the country had them.We were required to do original research. It makes me just furious to think that potential clients and colleagues would sneer at that based on what we see today i some of these programs.
So the answer is no, real education is never wasted, and is a force for good, and is a force for increased competence and progress. When you see someone with a string of letters after the name and who can't write a coherent sentence, make a cohesive argument, or critique a study, though, you have someone before you who is not truly educated. Period.
As for professional certifications, there are significant differences between certificates and certifications. Part of a real education should be learning the difference; judging by this thread there are a number of people who don't get that, either. I've got a fair number of real ones that each, should anyone care to check, required prerequisites of thousands of hours of practice before taking a multi-hour examination vetted by an independent entity, submission of expert work product (in at least two cases), and recertification dependent on continued work in the fields. Contrast this to a certificate granted by a course after an examination given by the course promoter, with the only qualification being paying for and sitting through the course and taking the exam on the last day (or now, online). People who care to know the difference, do. Those who don't, well, who cares what they think? Not I, but I grant there's a lot of education needed on that score too.
I would never dream of considering another nurse (or human being) inferior. To me it's not a matter of inferiority/superiority. just different paths chosen. I'd be a fool if I didn't think that someone with 30 years of experience didn't have a lot to teach me.
traumaRUs, MSN, APRN
87 Articles; 21,287 Posts
I have an MSN plus two post MSN certificates. I use them daily and got them in order to make myself more marketable in a tight economy as I got older. It's worked for me.
The business part of medicine is a reality and IMHO all nurses need to know the bottom line.