Do you need all those degrees?

[dnsonthego]

Where I work, we have a trend of nurses obtaining multiple degrees after obtaining basic nursing training and their RN license. At a management meeting this issue came up about why nurses are going for all these degrees (MSN, MPH, MBA, MPA, MHA, DNP, JD, Dr.P.H. etc.). I have colleagues that have two or three graduate degrees. I frequently see these degreed nurses working in staff, charge or lower level non clinical work (case management/discharge planning). The degree(s) did not get them far from the bedside.

An attending physician made a point that being a manager or charge nurse does not require an MBA degree. Another doctor stated that his son works at a Fortune 100 company in a significant job with a bachelor level education.

The impression I got is that the attendees saw this degree mania in nursing as silly and wasteful. The word wasteful was used as the facility provides tuition reimbursement.

Another comment was made that these degrees are mostly online degrees or from low standard/open enrollment schools. There appears to be true to this statement.

A department head then said why can't nurses be happy to be a nurse. If they want to be managers or executive, move on so that nurses who want to nurse can be at the bedside. He then discussed a nurse colleague who has two management degrees who is a bedside nurse and a nursing supervisor who has four graduate degrees (she has a master's in nursing to be an adult health nurse practitioner, a master's in public health, a master's in business and a master's in community health). The sad part is that the 4 graduate degree nursing supervisor could not prepare a report detailing an major event that occurred when she was on duty (she asked me to rewrite what she had written so as to not be embarrassed by her poor language skills--English is her second language). About twenty years ago I worked with a nurse who went to school to get a master's degree in journalism. She wanted out of nursing and saw journalism as her ticket. Unfortunately, when she graduated she could not locate a job that paid. She did not investigate the need to pay her dues in the competitive field of journalism. End result, she ended up staying in nursing. The impression we had of her then was she was a nice lady who was misguided and did not investigate what awaits graduates of her program. I hope by now she had paid off her student loans.

Back to the discussion...I did not respond about this issue during the meeting as I myself have mixed feelings about getting degrees especially since I do not see the degree holder having benefited from the education. Writing skills are still poor, professional presentation and presence is lacking and analytic skills are weak. When I interact with my degreed colleagues, I think to myself, what has all this schooling taught you?

In my day, you entered nursing via a diploma or associated degree and learned your trade on the floor. A degree (BSN or MSN)was needed to be a nursing director or nursing professor. I really never understood why nurses undertook going for these degrees since they stayed in nursing anyway. I know a few nurses over the years who thought that an MBA/MPH would get them into corporate America/government position only to be heartbroken that the degree got them nowhere. Having an MBA in marketing or Finance really isn't applicable to nursing even at the highest levels. Adding to this is the fact that if you do not practice these fields or specialty areas, you are not competent but rather have a degree as a trophy.

As for the DNP, I understand the logic of wanting to be like pharmacy and physical therapy, but even with a clinical doctorate degree, they are still a pharmacist or a physical therapist. If it hasn't elevated these other professions, what makes us think it will elevate us? Where I work, the culture of not calling these degree holders "doctor" prevails.

Anyway, I wanted to hear what other nurses think about the degree proliferation in nursing. Do you think this is a good trend or is this just breeding more discontented nurses who will continue to dream about careers they will never have?

[llg, PhD, RN]

It sounds like some of your colleagues have indeed been "buying" their degrees from diploma mills who are not providing them a good education. That is a shame and a waste.

I am all for nurses furthering their education when that education is legitimate and will be supporting their career goals. But what you describe sounds like a distorted twist on that noble ideal. People picking up degrees that aren't helping them much -- and that may be of questionable quality.

Sad.

[Asystole RN]

I went back to school for my BSN because I wanted it, for myself. I am going back to school for my MSN/MBA because I want it, for myself.

The end.

[applewhitern, BSN, RN]

Many of us have degrees in other fields than nursing; I have a business degree and was once in accounting, and I taught at a business school for a while. You are right, it really doesn't help a nurse's career much. I have found when it comes to "higher up" management positions, it usually boils down to "who you know." I am all for education, however, and think if you can afford it, and want to do it, get whatever degree you want to.

[classicdame, MSN, EdD]

Academia is impressed with nursees having multiple degrees, so a career at a university almost demands it. Some nurses love to learn and some believe the extra degree will help land the dream job. As for the MD who stated a nurse manager does not need an MBA - I know many who have an MBA. I guess he is not aware of the productivity and budget reports for which they are responsible. Each is literally running their own "business".

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

I am in the "I miss the old days" camp. I think that we are getting away from what we are....nurses. Just plain old nurses. I liked it when I had a boss who got promoted because she was excellent at the bedside and proved she can lead by example yet still roll up her sleeves in a pinch to help out.

I am confused by new grads...in particular some of the BSN who feels bedside nursing tasks are beneath them...that they seek jobs with minimal patient contact and no poop. no one likes poop...but it is necessary evil. If I wanted ultimate responsibility I would have become a MD...I didn't want to be a MD....I wanted to be a nurse...a simple nurse. I think putting other down as inferior when that nurse passed the same test is detrimental to the profession as a whole. How is a nurse with a ADN degree with 30 years of practice inferior to a BSN with the same amount of years in practice.....it just isn't the case. How can any one say that one uses evidenced based practice and the other does not is not accurate...for everytime we do something according to policy/within standard we are using evidenced practice.

I remember once not long ago I was asked when was I getting my MSN/MBA...I said probably never. The interviewer was shocked....she asked why I had no ambition. It was my turn to be shocked.....I told her and her PhD in philosophy that I have a successful and satisfying career...I have had an amazing career that I have enjoyed very much that I wanted to stay near the bedside for that was where I belonged and that I didn't feel a masters would give me anything further but debt...I had 2 children soon to enter college and it was no longer about me. I have the necessary clinical expertise that was necessary to supervise the facility in off hours in a fiscally prudent and safe manner. I was more than clinically competent as a resource and that since I had been a previous director of critical care an emergency service for a facility that was larger...I have the administrative qualifications for the job.

I did get the job and I was good at it. My boss the MSN,Phd director could not tell the difference between a port, a PICC line or a multilumen and made the comment ...well they are all the same right? Well, no they aren't/ However she could quote the latest evidence based practice except she couldn't practice her way to flush a heploc.

I think it's hurting what nurses are.

[RNperdiem, RN]

Part of it is degree inflation, another is a generational change.

This younger generation has been taught to revere higher education and degrees. The belief was that the more education and credentials you had the better off socially and financially you were. You can't call yourself middle-class in the US unless you are college educated.

Quality of the education is something not studied enough.

[JBudd, MSN]

I have a Masters because I wanted to get a masters. Didn't and don't want to leave the bedside, but I fail to see how being better educated hurts my practice!

I'm with llg , diploma mill degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but that doesn't mean the majority of us who studied are ignorant as well.

And, I learned a heck of a lot about the politics of nursing, and those who think to control our profession. If we don't pay attention to the legislation and the criteria used in accreditation, etc., we are no more than factory line worker bees. Our scope of practice is under attack, by use of "trained" but not "educated" techs and assistants. Yes, anyone can learn to put in a Foley or access a central line, with good technique; but have they learned the anatomy, the potential problems, the assessments that go along with it? Nursing is not tasking, it is thinking, while providing care.

[Asystole RN]

This has to be the only profession where being more educated is looked down upon.

[JBudd, MSN]

This has to be the only profession where being more educated is looked down upon.

Don't want those women to start thinking for them selves, or too well of themselves, you know. Just shut up and empty those bedpans, and don't worry your pretty little head about running the place.

[macawake, MSN]

Surely, if the quality of the program attended is high, added education in the field you practise in can only be viewed as a good thing?

Nurses continue to learn from practical experience throughout their careers. To me it makes perfect sense, if it is practically and financially achievable, to also continuously improve your academic/theoretical foundation.

Both methods (practical and academic) of learning are in my opinion valuable.

[macawake, MSN]

If I wanted ultimate responsibility I would have become a MD...I didn't want to be a MD....I wanted to be a nurse...a simple nurse. I think putting other down as inferior when that nurse passed the same test is detrimental to the profession as a whole. How is a nurse with a ADN degree with 30 years of practice inferior to a BSN with the same amount of years in practice.....it just isn't the case.

Oh, Esme I would never dream of considering another nurse (or human being) inferior. To me it's not a matter of inferiority/superiority. Just different paths chosen. I'd be a fool if I thought that someone with 30 years of experience didn't have a lot to teach me.

I don't know you Esme, but I've read enough of your posts to feel absolutely certain that you don't shy away from responsibility. You as a nurse are every bit as responsible for your patients as an MD and I have no doubt that you have assumed that responsibilty.

In my opinion the difference between an MD and a nurse is the area of responsibility, not the amount/degree of responsibilty we have. As I'm sure you agree with, there is nothing simple about being a nurse.