Has anybody else been pretty shocked by how polarized many of the forums have gotten lately? 'Back in the good ole' days,' people would occasionally have differing view points and get into little spats, but on the whole we were all on the same page and working toward the same common goal (patient and nurse well-being).
These days it feels like at least 1/3 of the trending forums eventually devolve into tirades and personal attacks. Even when the discussions start out fairly civil, they sour pretty quickly.
I realize that highly-polarized, highly-sensationalized news is the nature of our political system these days. I'm also guessing that the polarization is felt more deeply on AN because the two most prominent, polarizing topics right now (covid and 'black lives' protests) are both interrelated with public health. Usually AN members are at least somewhat united on the aims and goals for public health, even if they don't agree with the means. Now, there's just so much bickering.
It's really disheartening. AN is usually my escape from the outside world, where I can commiserate with other nurses on topics that only we understand. Lately, it feels like the lighthearted, feel-good nature of AN has been poisoned by all of this hatred. I hope we get back to the way things were sooner rather than later. ?
What are some of the ways that AN has been unwelcoming?
As a recent example, a poster on another thread clearly stated that she felt unwelcome and uncomfortable due to the racist tones insinuated by another poster.
She was ignored and denounced by the poster she was addressing, as well as other posters, as those posters were merely “expressing their opinion.”
Then people wonder why she is upset ... It was an upsetting exchange to witness; I can’t even begin to understand how it felt to be a POC (the target of the conversation).
This struck out at me: “so many well-meaning threads about covid and racism get completely derailed within the first or second page.” What defines “well-meaning?” I’m honestly, genuinely confused by this statement.
It seems that if someone feels uncomfortable, they feel “attacked.” However, it’s not the poster that is being “attacked.” Their viewpoint is being challenged. That doesn’t mean it’s not “well-meaning.” It’s because it’s an uncomfortable truth to have your world view be challenged.
To clarify, when I say "go back to the way things were," I mean back to AN posters generally treating one another with respect, and forums that tended to be a bit more productive for a longer period of time before spiraling out of control and having to be shut down by the mods.
But again, so often "respect" and "productive" means respectful and productive for those who aren't marginalized because the marginalized aren't making a fuss. YOU felt things were more collegial, but that doesn't mean the environment was truly an inclusive, respectful one. I think Black and POC folks have given us more than enough time to try to figure this systemic racism and personal biases thing out with niceness and handholding and walking on eggshells around white fragility; the onus is now on white folks to catch up fast and not be picky about how polite the rage is.
But again, so often "respect" and "productive" means respectful and productive for those who aren't marginalized because the marginalized aren't making a fuss. YOU felt things were more collegial, but that doesn't mean the environment was truly an inclusive, respectful one. I think Black and POC folks have given us more than enough time to try to figure this systemic racism and personal biases thing out with niceness and handholding and walking on eggshells around white fragility; the onus is now on white folks to catch up fast and not be picky about how polite the rage is.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
1 hour ago, adventure_rn said:
To clarify, when I say "go back to the way things were," I meant back to AN posters generally treating one another with respect, and forums that tended to be a bit more productive for a longer period of time before spiraling out of control and having to be shut down by the mods.
I absolutely don't mean going back to the way we were before these discussions were brought to the forefront of public consciousness. I don't think we as a country will ever go back to the way things were, nor should we. And we as an AN community should be more open to discussing how racism affects nursing, both for our patients and the nurses in our community.
Apparently "racism" wasn't really even a word to ponder before 1902 or roundabout. That was the same year we coined the term suffragette.
But again, so often "respect" and "productive" means respectful and productive for those who aren't marginalized because the marginalized aren't making a fuss. YOU felt things were more collegial, but that doesn't mean the environment was truly an inclusive, respectful one. I think Black and POC folks have given us more than enough time to try to figure this systemic racism and personal biases thing out with niceness and handholding and walking on eggshells around white fragility; the onus is now on white folks to catch up fast and not be picky about how polite the rage is.
I hear you, and I do understand that (or I'm trying to, to the best of my ability coming from a place of privilege). It totally makes sense to me that POC would be fed up and angry, and that they have every right to speak their truth and share their rage, even if it offends the 'sensitivities' of white people. I agree that these protests shouldn't have to be peaceful, and black voices shouldn't have to be censored. For instance, I think it's really courageous and important that nurses on this forum are talking about how they've felt marginalized or excluded on this site. It can (and is) hard for a lot of white people to hear, but it's important that it's said. Without recognizing our microagressions, we can't address them, and best way for us to recognize them is by people calling us out on them. IMO, it's really crappy that people are getting so defensive instead of recognizing how they can do better (what happened to @ThePrincessBride does not sound OK).
Honestly, I don't think that you and I are talking about the same types of posts (although I could be wrong).
1 hour ago, pixierose said:
This struck out at me: “so many well-meaning threads about covid and racism get completely derailed within the first or second page.” What defines “well-meaning?” I’m honestly, genuinely confused by this statement.
One example is one of the very earliest covid posts, pre-protests; it was called "Covid Anxiety" or something like that. The post turned to the question of mandatory masking in certain cities, and a member who is notorious for stirring the pot started ranting about how "Requiring masks in the next step in the downslide to communist China," comparing mandatory masking to Nazi Germany, calling people Comrade, and lamenting that he couldn't "throw a bunch of expletives" at users on the site. The original post was pretty well-intentioned. The response was pretty troll-y and unproductive.
At the start of the protests, I made a post expressing concerns related to the worsening of covid. At the time, I was genuinely concerned about covid surges, and how they might disproportionately affect the black community; I now realize that post itself was coming from a place of privilege. The initial respondent was the first person to help me recognize that racism is a public health issue (which sounds so dumb and obvious to say now). I thought that there was an interesting, productive discussion at the beginning; now the mods are having to remove a bunch of the new responses because they're so inappropriate (my idea of 'being derailed.')
Those kind of posts remind me of the looters who had no affiliation with the protests, and the alt-right people who were vandalizing just to stir up controversy. They made a big scene, inspired some very polarized opinions, and in the end, they distracted from the actual issues at hand (much like the super-extreme, offensive posts that are popping up on AN, distracting from meaningful discussions that could be occuring).
Anyway, I know that I write this from a place of privilege, and that I can't separate myself from that. I also get that it's pretty priviledged for me to assume that I know what is 'well-intentioned' and what isn't. However, your responses have really challenged me to recognize that privilege, and how it can be used to perpetuate microagressions.
@HiddencatBSN, I feel like your comment is kind of what I'm talking about. You pointed out my privilege and called me out on my crap, and it made me uncomfortable, but it also really opened my eyes. The way that you said it was pointed without being rude, and so I heard it. If you'd said it in a really troll-y way, I probably wouldn't have.
Does that make sense? Again, if I'm totally missing the point here, please tell me.
Specializes in Clinical Pediatrics; Maternal-Child Educator.
3 hours ago, ThePrincessBride said:
I am a black RN and let me tell you: AN has ALWAYS been polarizing and unwelcoming towards black RNs. I have been on this forum for many years and the level of intolerance and acceptance of bigotry has just escalated in the last few years, but it has always been there below the surface.
This is probably the most important conversation that we should be having - how we can make AN more comfortable for POC and marginalized groups.
If I'm honest (and this does come from a place of privilege) I may not recognize microaggressions that I probably make myself. I try to treat everyone fairly, but until someone points out to me how something is perceived or wrong, I may not recognize it on my own. The only viewpoint I have is my own until someone helps me to expand it or to see if from a perspective I may not have considered. I welcome these conversations because they help me grow as both a person and a nurse.
I hear you, and I do understand that (or I'm trying to, to the best of my ability coming from a place of privilege). It totally makes sense to me that POC would be fed up and angry, and that they have every right to speak their truth and share their rage, even if it offends the 'sensitivities' of white people. I agree that these protests shouldn't have to be peaceful, and black voices shouldn't have to be censored. For instance, I think it's really courageous and important that nurses on this forum are talking about how they've felt marginalized or excluded on this site. It can (and is) hard for a lot of white people to hear, but it's important that it's said. Without recognizing our microagressions, we can't address them, and best way for us to recognize them is by people calling us out on them. IMO, it's really crappy that people are getting so defensive instead of recognizing how they can do better (what happened to @ThePrincessBride does not sound OK).
Honestly, I don't think that you and I are talking about the same types of posts (although I could be wrong).
One example is one of the very earliest covid posts, pre-protests; it was called "Covid Anxiety" or something like that. The post turned to the question of mandatory masking in certain cities, and a member who is notorious for stirring the pot started ranting about how "Requiring masks in the next step in the downslide to communist China," comparing mandatory masking to Nazi Germany, calling people Comrade, and lamenting that he couldn't "throw a bunch of expletives" at users on the site. The original post was pretty well-intentioned. The response was pretty troll-y and unproductive.
At the start of the protests, I made a post expressing concerns related to the worsening of covid. At the time, I was genuinely concerned about covid surges, and how they might disproportionately affect the black community; I now realize that post itself was coming from a place of privilege. The initial respondent was the first person to help me recognize that racism is a public health issue (which sounds so dumb and obvious to say now). I thought that there was an interesting, productive discussion at the beginning; now the mods are having to remove a bunch of the new responses because they're so inappropriate (my idea of 'being derailed.')
Those kind of posts remind me of the looters who had no affiliation with the protests, and the alt-right people who were vandalizing just to stir up controversy. They made a big scene, inspired some very polarized opinions, and in the end, they distracted from the actual issues at hand (much like the super-extreme, offensive posts that are popping up on AN, distracting from meaningful discussions that could be occuring).
Anyway, I know that I write this from a place of privilege, and that I can't separate myself from that. I also get that it's pretty priviledged for me to assume that I know what is 'well-intentioned' and what isn't. However, your responses have really challenged me to recognize that privilege, and how it can be used to perpetuate microagressions.
@HiddencatBSN, I feel like your comment is kind of what I'm talking about. You pointed out my privilege and called me out on my crap, and it made me uncomfortable, but it also really opened my eyes. The way that you said it was pointed without being rude, and so I heard it. If you'd said it in a really troll-y way, I probably wouldn't have.
Does that make sense? Again, if I'm totally missing the point here, please tell me.
This is why these discussions are worth it. I feel heartened by reading this post, and lovingpeds as well.
My last year of high school I moved in with my father and had to switch schools. The new school was approximately 50% black, 50%white.
I remember, only black girls gathered in the bathrooms to socialize and smoke. When I entered to use one, they would all stop talking, stare at me as I entered the stall, and not a word until I left, only hostile stares.
Is that what is meant by microaggression? It was very uncomfortable for me.
Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
I think nursing by its very nature is often political.
The changing point for me that is the moment when I became less willing to simply quitely sit down and not challenge the status quo was after the shootings in Christchurch last year.
A white gunman walked into two mosques in Christchurch, murdered 51 people and wounded a further 50 plus people. It also came a wee bit too close for comfort, the shooters car was knocked off the road infront of my house and I wasnt able to go home. After it though we started talking about how often we tolerate racist jokes, or dont speak up in the face of racism. For me I was like I'm determined not to be the person who allows that to go unchallenged.
I've heard people and people of colour talking about white privlidge and admit that I never fully understood what is was, I read this great article the other day. It's a longish read however really well said
My last year of high school I moved in with my father and had to switch schools. The new school was approximately 50% black, 50%white.
I remember, only black girls gathered in the bathrooms to socialize and smoke. When I entered to use one, they would all stop talking, stare at me as I entered the stall, and not a word until I left, only hostile stares.
Is that what is meant by microaggression? It was very uncomfortable for me.
That is a link of examples of microaggressions that I think is pretty straightforward and helpful. Things like "Where were you born?" or "You're a credit to your race" or singling an Asian person out to ask for help with a math or science problem. They are seemingly innocent statements rooted in racism.
What you experienced in high school was unfortunate. It is still not anything compared to the racism that non-whites experience in this country on the regular. White privilege does exist. It doesn't mean that white people don't experience hardships.
until someone points out to me how something is perceived or wrong, I may not recognize it on my own. The only viewpoint I have is my own until someone helps me to expand it or to see if from a perspective I may not have considered. I welcome these conversations because they help me grow as both a person and a nurse.
I appreciate the sentiment of what you're saying, but I'd encourage you to start looking at yourself through a different lens. Instead of waiting for someone to help you see the error of your ways, you can actively seek out ways to increase your knowledge about anti-racism. Indeed, you can view it as your own responsibility, not the responsibility of anyone else. Not trying to pick on you at all---just another way to view things.
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pixierose, BSN, RN
882 Posts
As a recent example, a poster on another thread clearly stated that she felt unwelcome and uncomfortable due to the racist tones insinuated by another poster.
She was ignored and denounced by the poster she was addressing, as well as other posters, as those posters were merely “expressing their opinion.”
Then people wonder why she is upset ... It was an upsetting exchange to witness; I can’t even begin to understand how it felt to be a POC (the target of the conversation).
This struck out at me: “so many well-meaning threads about covid and racism get completely derailed within the first or second page.” What defines “well-meaning?” I’m honestly, genuinely confused by this statement.
It seems that if someone feels uncomfortable, they feel “attacked.” However, it’s not the poster that is being “attacked.” Their viewpoint is being challenged. That doesn’t mean it’s not “well-meaning.” It’s because it’s an uncomfortable truth to have your world view be challenged.