Has anybody else been pretty shocked by how polarized many of the forums have gotten lately? 'Back in the good ole' days,' people would occasionally have differing view points and get into little spats, but on the whole we were all on the same page and working toward the same common goal (patient and nurse well-being).
These days it feels like at least 1/3 of the trending forums eventually devolve into tirades and personal attacks. Even when the discussions start out fairly civil, they sour pretty quickly.
I realize that highly-polarized, highly-sensationalized news is the nature of our political system these days. I'm also guessing that the polarization is felt more deeply on AN because the two most prominent, polarizing topics right now (covid and 'black lives' protests) are both interrelated with public health. Usually AN members are at least somewhat united on the aims and goals for public health, even if they don't agree with the means. Now, there's just so much bickering.
It's really disheartening. AN is usually my escape from the outside world, where I can commiserate with other nurses on topics that only we understand. Lately, it feels like the lighthearted, feel-good nature of AN has been poisoned by all of this hatred. I hope we get back to the way things were sooner rather than later. ?
Has anybody else been pretty shocked by how polarized many of the forums have gotten lately? 'Back in the good ole' days,' people would occasionally have differing view points and get into little spats, but on the whole we were all on the same page and working toward the same common goal (patient and nurse well-being).
These days it feels like at least 1/3 of the trending forums eventually devolve into tirades and personal attacks. Even when the discussions start out fairly civil, they sour pretty quickly.
I realize that highly-polarized, highly-sensationalized news is the nature of our political system these days. I'm also guessing that the polarization is felt more deeply on AN because the two most prominent, polarizing topics right now (covid and 'black lives' protests) are both interrelated with public health. Usually AN members are at least somewhat united on the aims and goals for public health, even if they don't agree with the means. Now, there's just so much bickering.
It's really disheartening. AN is usually my escape from the outside world, where I can commiserate with other nurses on topics that only we understand. Lately, it feels like the lighthearted, feel-good nature of AN has been poisoned by all of this hatred. I hope we get back to the way things were sooner rather than later. ?
Often “peace” and “everyone getting along” means marginalized people are tolerating a ton of microaggressions or straight up injustice. And “the way things were” was comfortable and safe for some people but not everyone.
Health care and politics are intimately connected and I’m glad to see nurses here grappling with how racism impacts our work and our patients. And I think that discussion is way more important than making sure there’s a polite tone on the board at all times.
Specializes in Clinical Pediatrics; Maternal-Child Educator.
52 minutes ago, HiddencatBSN said:
Health care and politics are intimately connected and I’m glad to see nurses here grappling with how racism impacts our work and our patients. And I think that discussion is way more important than making sure there’s a polite tone on the board at all times.
I agree to an extent. Lively debate helps people grow. The thing about lively debate though is that, even when it's personal, it's never taken to spiteful or catty place. Growth, self-discovery, and reflection will stop the moment that personal attacks are made on that person's character, intellect, etc. because few will even bother to listen to a view point (no matter how valid) that is expressed that way. A tone doesn't have to be polite, but it shouldn't be disrespectful either. We're all supposed to be either professionals or aspiring to be professionals and there is little tolerance for disrespect in professional discourse. Nothing shows a person's true colors more than personal attacks on a person rather than continued conversation on a topic. ☹️
It is an extremely rare occurrence for someone to change their mind from an internet debate. It's basically a way for people to spout off, then congratulate themselves on their brilliant articulation of what they think is the truth.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
4 minutes ago, Emergent said:
It is an extremely rare occurrence for someone to change their mind from an internet debate. It's basically a way for people to spout off, then congratulate themselves on their brilliant articulation of what they think is the truth.
Sometimes the objective of a healthy discussion isn't too change the other's opinion but to hear their articulated argument or beliefs, consider their evidence and then discuss them. To present an opposing or different perspective and the evidence which influences the thinking or belief. It's not impossible that when passionate but repectful debate/discussion happens in a forum such as this, readers of the thread may grow or change their POV because of the strength or weakness of the arguments or evidence they've read through and considered.
I am a black RN and let me tell you: AN has ALWAYS been polarizing and unwelcoming towards black RNs. I have been on this forum for many years and the level of intolerance and acceptance of bigotry has just escalated in the last few years, but it has always been there below the surface.
I also think the whole "respect everyone's opinions" is BS especially when one opinion marginalizes or dismisses a disadvantaged group of people.
I also think it is sad that the BLM movement is considered to be polarizing. It shouldn't be as it is pretty clear that the justice system is skewed against black people and needs a major overhaul.
I am a black RN and let me tell you: AN has ALWAYS been polarizing and unwelcoming towards black RNs. I have been on this forum for many years and the level of intolerance and acceptance of bigotry has just escalated in the last few years, but it has always been there below the surface.
What are some of the ways that AN has been unwelcoming?
Often “peace” and “everyone getting along” means marginalized people are tolerating a ton of microaggressions or straight up injustice. And “the way things were” was comfortable and safe for some people but not everyone.
Health care and politics are intimately connected and I’m glad to see nurses here grappling with how racism impacts our work and our patients. And I think that discussion is way more important than making sure there’s a polite tone on the board at all times.
This. To reminisce about the "good old days" when it was less common to bring up uncomfortable topics, to me, is just another sign of privilege. It's a privilege to be able to pretend that since nothing difficult is happening to you (the general you) personally, it's better not to think about or discuss those difficult things. Of course, in any discussion, civility is necessary for it to be productive. I've been here since 2008 and I don't think things are any better or worse, personally. I ignore blatant trolls and look to posters I've "known" for awhile for engaging topics and ideas. I know that not everyone will agree with me but I hope I can sometimes make someone consider a different point of view (just as others do me).
What are some of the ways that AN has been unwelcoming?
I'd rather not say but believe me I and other black posters have been dismissed and accused of "playing the race card" when we have called out or spoken against racism, microaggressions and otherwise.
It is an extremely rare occurrence for someone to change their mind from an internet debate. It's basically a way for people to spout off, then congratulate themselves on their brilliant articulation of what they think is the truth.
There are many reasons to engage beyond changing the person you’re arguing with’s mind though. There’s the audience of people who ARE often listening/watching with a more open mind. There are people who agree with you who you can connect with around shared belief. And there are the folks who are affected by the subject of the debate who can find support and maybe appreciate not being the only ones making an argument.
And in terms of racism specifically, making things uncomfortable for those who hold racist beliefs makes them more likely to keep that to themselves.
People are angry. There’s been polite and friendly discussion for a long time without any change, so it seems unfair to blame unwillingness to consider other perspectives on anger and tone. We have years and YEARS of data on racial disparities in health outcomes, of data on bias within the healthcare profession. And as a profession....what have we done to address that? Black women are 4 times more likely to die of child birth related complications in this country that white women, and this is the case even when we adjust for comorbidities and class but oh noes, some folks are using mean words online and that’s not good debate etiquette.
Wanting to go back “to the way things were” and thinking that not addressing politics directly is being apolitical (avoiding confronting oppression and bias are INCREDIBLY political actions) are positions reflecting a ton of privilege.
AN doesn’t exist within a vacuum and I’d be really disappointed in everyone here if we weren’t talking about current events from a nursing perspective.
Often “peace” and “everyone getting along” means marginalized people are tolerating a ton of microaggressions or straight up injustice. And “the way things were” was comfortable and safe for some people but not everyone.
Health care and politics are intimately connected and I’m glad to see nurses here grappling with how racism impacts our work and our patients. And I think that discussion is way more important than making sure there’s a polite tone on the board at all times.
I absolutely agree with you. It is important for us to get into those meaningful, impassioned debates, even if they can be hard to discuss.
The problem that I've seen lately is that so many well-meaning threads about covid and racism get completely derailed within the first or second page. Once you get to that point where a small handful of posters are making extreme, over-the-top, offensive comments, it really undermines any kind of productive discourse on either side. Yes, you can ignore those users, but their comments drive the direction of the rest of the forum. The bickering and name-calling becomes so obtrusive, it drowns out everything else.
I realize that these polarizing forums/posts have always exsited, but it seems like lately they've been taking over the trending feeds on the main page. Since they get so many posts (with the same handful of people arguing back and forth), they knock all of the other trending posts off the main page. Lately, the respectful, productive debates also seem to get derailed exponentially faster. Historically, most of the 'controversial' forums wouldn't go completely down the tubes until the fifth or sixth pages; now, some of them are off-track by the fifth or sixth comment.
I agree with a lot of the PPs that these are important to have (especially since the issues pertain to public health), but it feels like the tiny proportion of posters making ridiculous statements and personal attacks are ruining the productive discussion for everybody else.
AN is generally a pretty professional forum with thoughtful (if not blunt) discourse, but all of the trolling lately makes me feel like I stumbled onto Reddit...
HiddencatBSN, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The discussion needs to take place and while I think a polite tone is preferable and often more constructive, actually having the discussion takes precedence.
There have been many interesting posts in this thread. One poster expressed that we should be aware that other people can have different perspectives than our own, and that we should respect their beliefs. I agree with the different perspective part, but not necessarily with the respect part.
Not all beliefs are created equal. I will always respect the person’s right to have their belief, but I will not always respect the belief itself. It depends entirely on whether that belief is actively harming other human beings. Beliefs often guide our actions, and actions can be wrong and sometimes illegal. Should the belief itself still be afforded respect?
Wanting to go back “to the way things were” and thinking that not addressing politics directly is being apolitical (avoiding confronting oppression and bias are INCREDIBLY political actions) are positions reflecting a ton of privilege.
To clarify, when I say "go back to the way things were," I mean back to AN posters generally treating one another with respect, and forums that tended to be a bit more productive for a longer period of time before spiraling out of control and having to be shut down by the mods.
I absolutely don't mean going back to the way we were before these discussions were brought to the forefront of public consciousness. I don't think we as a country will ever go back to the way things were, nor should we. And we as an AN community should be more open to discussing how racism affects nursing, both for our patients and the nurses in our community. I just hope that we can do so with more empathy and respect, and with less personal attacks.
HiddencatBSN, BSN
594 Posts
Often “peace” and “everyone getting along” means marginalized people are tolerating a ton of microaggressions or straight up injustice. And “the way things were” was comfortable and safe for some people but not everyone.
Health care and politics are intimately connected and I’m glad to see nurses here grappling with how racism impacts our work and our patients. And I think that discussion is way more important than making sure there’s a polite tone on the board at all times.