Apparently per the EEOC's guidelines employers (not just healthcare related) can mandate vaccination of workers. The exception is a "sincerely held religious belief" or a covered disability. Just found out this morning that a chain of for profit LTC/SNF's are rolling out a Covid vaccine mandate for all direct care staff or face indefinite unpaid administrative leave. I am a heavy supporter of vaccination and of the new COVID vaccine and in fact am due to get one in early January. But I am doing so of my own volition. My facility encouraged all workers to sign up for a vaccine and provided information sessions and it's been really effective at getting people to sign up.
Even though I would disagree with someone's choice to not vaccinate, I don't believe they should be mandated at this point.
Many of the deaths (most) reported in VAERS were not even from the AstraZenica vaccine making your link less relevant. Also, many of the deaths did not involve blood clots.
Okay, from your perspective what would be the standard for saying that a death after vaccination reported to VAERS indeed was associated with the vaccine? What test, finding would lead you to conclude this?
A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records by qualified public health experts is the standard for determining causality. Why don't you know these things?
A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records by qualified public health experts is the standard for determining causality. Why don't you know these things?
The blog links to the VAERS database. They have "added" the numbers but all the data is from VAERS. Which part of their conclusions do you question?
As for determining causality my point is that there is no "signature" other than perhaps witnessed shock after getting a shot that would rise to the level of a post Covid death being termed that.
Look, I am tired from these discussions and it is frankly affecting my charting (my SO pointed out that I've gotten even further behind in my charting than is common for me) and my ability to effectively care for my clients. I am going to defer to consensus for now watch and wait and see what happens as more data emerges. Odds are I will end up taking the vaccines whether I want to or not as I am a small "cog" in a giant machine and cannot really afford to fight much of anything.
Specializes in Psych, Addictions, SOL (Student of Life).
8 hours ago, myoglobin said:
There is no problem with my "logical thinking". I also read a variety of sources ranging from Revolver and Naturalnews.com on the right to Huffington Post and Democratic underground on the right to www.realclearscience in the middle. You question "our logic" (call us the Covid Vaccine cautious) we question the veracity of sources that consistently look the other way at adverse events and have even changed the very methodology of how they will count positive Covid cases (as the CDC announced they will start doing about a week ago when they revealed they will use a different standard which will effectively undercount Covid cases in the vaccinated) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9566619/CDC-stopped-counting-breakthrough-Covid-infection-fully-vaccinated-people.html . This is reminiscent of a few months ago when mainstream sources such as facebook, Twiitter and Youtube took down all media and posts claiming that Covid may have had a non "natural" origin which has now become mainstream. So long as the mainstream plays "bait and switch" on methodology and what they allow to be discussed it should be treated with deep skepticism.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
3 hours ago, myoglobin said:
The blog links to the VAERS database. They have "added" the numbers but all the data is from VAERS. Which part of their conclusions do you question?
As for determining causality my point is that there is no "signature" other than perhaps witnessed shock after getting a shot that would rise to the level of a post Covid death being termed that.
Look, I am tired from these discussions and it is frankly affecting my charting (my SO pointed out that I've gotten even further behind in my charting than is common for me) and my ability to effectively care for my clients. I am going to defer to consensus for now watch and wait and see what happens as more data emerges. Odds are I will end up taking the vaccines whether I want to or not as I am a small "cog" in a giant machine and cannot really afford to fight much of anything.
That leaves the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about.
You continue to state "as fact" that there have been thousands of deaths FROM covid vaccines in the USA alone. So as this is a nursing forum and as nurses are supposed to use evidence based practice will you for once and all give us the research and sites that support your statements.
I do not want anything containing raw VAERS data because that is useless as has been pointed out to you many times. I do not want blogs or homeopathic websites, I want clear, concise information that can be checked. I do not want someone who died as a result of being hit by a car 2 weeks after receiving their vaccine included in the figures.
While we are at it can you please tell me why the rest of the world do not have the same number of deaths? Why, when in Europe there were a few deaths noted from blood clots this was immediately acted upon and those particular vaccines were not to be used in certain age groups?
So to stop this continual back and forth can you please just give us a reference. I don't care if it's right, left or centre as long as it is trustworthy and not a conspiracy theory site.
You continue to state "as fact" that there have been thousands of deaths FROM covid vaccines in the USA alone. So as this is a nursing forum and as nurses are supposed to use evidence based practice will you for once and all give us the research and sites that support your statements.
I do not want anything containing raw VAERS data because that is useless as has been pointed out to you many times. I do not want blogs or homeopathic websites, I want clear, concise information that can be checked. I do not want someone who died as a result of being hit by a car 2 weeks after receiving their vaccine included in the figures.
While we are at it can you please tell me why the rest of the world do not have the same number of deaths? Why, when in Europe there were a few deaths noted from blood clots this was immediately acted upon and those particular vaccines were not to be used in certain age groups?
So to stop this continual back and forth can you please just give us a reference. I don't care if it's right, left or centre as long as it is trustworthy and not a conspiracy theory site.
I am relying on the VAERS database from the CDC of deaths associated with the Covid vaccination.
Then you are relying on crap. As told to you numerous times, VAERS cautions that you CANNOT claim causation from any of the reports on their site. That is not the intention of VAERS.
Many of the deaths (most) reported in VAERS were not even from the AstraZenica vaccine making your link less relevant. Also, many of the deaths did not involve blood clots.
You are completely missing the point. My link is highly relevant.
The reason I posted the EMA (European Medicines Agency) link regarding the AstraZeneca vaccine several times was to show you that information about possible side effects is being gathered, analyzedandactedupon if need be.
As a side note, it would be quite surprising if a large number of suspected side effects from the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine were being reported to VAERS as the vaccine isn’t even approved (or EUA) in the U.S. as far as I’m aware. I’m guessing that the only Americans who’ve received this vaccine would be those who participated in a trial and that’s a very small number and side effects ought to have been reported to those in charge of the U.S. trial. And perhaps Americans living abroad, but I assume they would be reporting suspected side effects locally? At least their physicians/providers would be.
I just looked at which vaccines Italy has used so far. I just picked one random western European country because all EU countries have received about the same proportions of the three approved vaccines (now four since J&J was added recently). Italy has used approximately 7 million doses Oxford-AstraZeneca and about 25 (!) million doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. We’ve all vaccinated with manymore doses of the Pfizer vaccine than the AstraZeneca one.
Reporting suspected side effects has worked really well in Europe with the AstraZeneca vaccine. Do you have any rational reason to think that it hasn’t worked equally well with the other vaccines? EMA did identify the suspected blood clot/low platelets even though they are a very rare occurrence.
It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t happen to be blood clots that have primarily been reported to VAERS. The important thing is that the professionals who analyze the raw data will identify when events occur beyond the expected background incidence of that event and will investigate further.
On 6/3/2021 at 1:36 AM, myoglobin said:
Look, I am tired from these discussions and it is frankly affecting my charting (my SO pointed out that I've gotten even further behind in my charting than is common for me) and my ability to effectively care for my clients. Iamgoingtodefertoconsensusfornowwatchandwaitandseewhathappensasmoredataemerges. Odds are I will end up taking the vaccines whether I want to or not as I am a small "cog" in a giant machine and cannot really afford to fight much of anything.
That’s an excellent idea. I’m not being snarky. At this point we all know what your personal opinions on the vaccines are. It’s not meaningful to rehash them.
As you’ve noticed lots of nurses become extremely annoyed when you share disinformation from disreputable sources or when you speculate wildly without offering a shred of legitimate evidence or providing even a remotely logical foundation for your various theories and concerns.
If I’m being quite honest, my main reason for remaining in this thread is to try to provide a counterbalance to what I consider harmful disinformation. (One example in case you’re wondering is your claim that thousands have died from taking Covid-19 vaccines without providing any evidence. Not cool! (And no, VAERS is not evidence)).
So please dowaitandsee what happens when more data emerges. That’s all we can all do really and in my opinion it’s our responsibility as healthcare professionals. There’s already so much data available about the vaccines, both on safety and efficacy. And it’s good data. But we learn more about both the virus and the vaccines pretty much every day. One last thing, please stop looking at raw data that hasn’tbeenverifiedoranalyzed and attempt to draw conclusions from that. You will be wrong. That data isnotintendedforyou. (Or me). (Or Joe Blow on the internet).
Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
On 6/2/2021 at 9:27 AM, myoglobin said:
Also your concepts of "rights" may in fact be different from mine given that you live in nation that does not have the same Bill of Rights and other Amendments.
I live in a country that IMO has a far superior bill of rights to the US
Some americans are soo bloody arrogant you seem to believe that the world outside of your own small corner functions with rocks and sticks and then scratch your heads and wonder why the rest of the world has such an issue with you.
The raw data from VAERS is useless until it is sorted by professionals, at which point it becomes valuable. Anybody here could go on and report angel wings sprouting after a tetorifice vaccine.
While some on this thread are trying to combat mis/disinformation with science and evidence, remember, this argument is not about that. Years from now, this facet of our culture war will be studied with amazement.
A debate in which one side has no obligation to logic or evidence isn't really a debate; it is a platform to spew nonsense. Every counter argument just provides another opportunity.
toomuchbaloney
16,040 Posts
Holy hell...a blog...that's your evidence.
A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records by qualified public health experts is the standard for determining causality. Why don't you know these things?