Yes, Employer Can Require Covid Vaccine

[TheMoonisMyLantern]

Apparently per the EEOC's guidelines employers (not just healthcare related) can mandate vaccination of workers. The exception is a "sincerely held religious belief" or a covered disability. Just found out this morning that a chain of for profit LTC/SNF's are rolling out a Covid vaccine mandate for all direct care staff or face indefinite unpaid administrative leave. I am a heavy supporter of vaccination and of the new COVID vaccine and in fact am due to get one in early January. But I am doing so of my own volition. My facility encouraged all workers to sign up for a vaccine and provided information sessions and it's been really effective at getting people to sign up. 

Even though I would disagree with someone's choice to not vaccinate, I don't believe they should be mandated at this point.

Yes, your employer can require you to get a COVID-19 vaccine, the EEOC says

[toomuchbaloney]

2 hours ago, myoglobin said:

We can quibble whether or not Trump was positive or negative for immigration and US reputation.  What we cannot argue with is that he is no longer President (although he could end up as House Speaker in 2021 if the Republicans retake the House) However, over the "broad" course of history more people have sought to come here than any nation on Earth.  Not only that virtually no other nation "welcomes" people who  move in to our borders even when they do so in a manner that violates the law to the degree that we do (again both good and bad points here). Not only that "we" (The United States) will be essentially taking private property (Vaccine patents from major pharm companies) and "giving" them to the world for free (again both good and bad points for doing this but it will be done all the same). There are plenty of reasons to both love and hate this nation, but I would encourage people to focus more on the ones to love it. 

First, the notion that Trump would settle for a House seat is funny. Bannon comes up with some interesting stuff.  

Second, for a guy who thinks that we should focus upon what is loveable about this country, you've mentioned secession or similar thinking quite a surprising number of times in your comments.  Loving your country doesn't include thinking that maybe you should break it into pieces.  It just doesn't. 

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

6 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

First, the notion that Trump would settle for a House seat is funny. Bannon comes up with some interesting stuff.  

Second, for a guy who thinks that we should focus upon what is loveable about this country, you've mentioned secession or similar thinking quite a surprising number of times in your comments.  Loving your country doesn't include thinking that maybe you should break it into pieces.  It just doesn't. 

It can. Montreal came pretty darn close to leaving Canada yet most would still say they love Canada. Scotland toyed with leaving the UK. So long as Republicans keep the filibuster and can avoid an "expanded" Supreme Court I suspect that we will remain united. However, if those "dominoes" fell then all bets would probably be off.  Here is a recent article that discusses the concept https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/california-secession .

 

Also the CDC releases concerns about Myocarditis in 18 to 24 year old people getting second vaccine dosages. Vaccines have risks and benefits and where the risks are lower with regard to the Virus (younger people) the relative risk of adverse vaccine side effects increases https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/10/covid-vaccine-CDC-says-heart-inflammation-cases-in-16-to-24-year-olds-higher-than-expected-after-second-shot.html .

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

10 minutes ago, myoglobin said:

It can. Montreal came pretty darn close to leaving Canada yet most would still say they love Canada. Scotland toyed with leaving the UK. So long as Republicans keep the filibuster and can avoid an "expanded" Supreme Court I suspect that we will remain united. However, if those "dominoes" fell then all bets would probably be off.  Here is a recent article that discusses the concept https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/california-secession . This quote from the article illustrates the "depth" of public sentiment that might fuel such a development:

A poll in 2018 found that 31 per cent of probable voters think there will be another civil war within five years. Another survey at about the same time found that 39 per cent supported the right of states to secede and that Democrats were more likely to support secession.

 

Also the CDC releases concerns about Myocarditis in 18 to 24 year old people getting second vaccine dosages. Vaccines have risks and benefits and where the risks are lower with regard to the Virus (younger people) the relative risk of adverse vaccine side effects increases https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/10/covid-vaccine-CDC-says-heart-inflammation-cases-in-16-to-24-year-olds-higher-than-expected-after-second-shot.html . Another article expressing alarm at the over 2000% increase in myocarditis being seen in younger people getting the vaccine. https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/increased-risk-of-heart-muscle-inflammation-linked-with-mrna-vaccines-seen-in-ottawa  .

At least the CDC has called an emergency meeting to discuss these concerns https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vaccine-myocarditis-heart-inflammation-CDC/ .  Hopefully, we will follow Israel's lead in taking these risks seriouslyhttps://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-sees-probable-link-between-pfizer-vaccine-small-number-myocarditis-cases-2021-06-01/ .  Vaccines have risks and benefit and in this case we are seeing some of the risks.

 

 

[toomuchbaloney]

19 minutes ago, myoglobin said:

It can. Montreal came pretty darn close to leaving Canada yet most would still say they love Canada. Scotland toyed with leaving the UK. So long as Republicans keep the filibuster and can avoid an "expanded" Supreme Court I suspect that we will remain united. However, if those "dominoes" fell then all bets would probably be off.  Here is a recent article that discusses the concept https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/california-secession .

 

Also the CDC releases concerns about Myocarditis in 18 to 24 year old people getting second vaccine dosages. Vaccines have risks and benefits and where the risks are lower with regard to the Virus (younger people) the relative risk of adverse vaccine side effects increases https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/10/covid-vaccine-CDC-says-heart-inflammation-cases-in-16-to-24-year-olds-higher-than-expected-after-second-shot.html .

No.

Casual suggestions that this union could be divided up to satisfy some grievance is far from patriotic and is not evidence of love. 

From the linked article:

Quote

However, the group also said data from another database -Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) - did not show that rates of myocarditis or pericarditis after COVID-19 vaccination differed from expectations. The VSD has data from nine healthcare organizations and can be used to compare vaccinated populations to unvaccinated ones.

Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, said that parents should still vaccinate their kids because of the known risks of COVID-19, including multi-system inflammatory syndrome.

"This issue of a transient myocarditis associated with a vaccine is at the moment a theoretical and unproven risk," Offit said. "So I think that in the world of trying to weigh relative risks, the disease is a greater risk."

The European Medicines Agency (EMA) said last week that heart inflammation after receiving the Pfizer vaccine had been no cause for concern as such incidents were similar rate to those in the general population. It added at the time that young men were particularly prone to the condition.

Everyone is aware that vaccines have risks. Have you yet accepted that not vaccinating is riskier than vaccinating, during a pandemic?

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

24 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

No.

Casual suggestions that this union could be divided up to satisfy some grievance is far from patriotic and is not evidence of love. 

From the linked article:

Everyone is aware that vaccines have risks. Have you yet accepted that not vaccinating is riskier than vaccinating, during a pandemic?

For some most definitely (those over 70 with comorbid conditions) for those younger than say 30 the risk to benefit ratio becomes much more difficult to ascertain. If we also consider "antibody" status from previous Covid 19 infection then the risk to benefit balance become even more difficult especially given developing information on the risks of these vaccines. Recent research from the Cleveland Clinic underlines this point when people have been previously infected and have antibodies.  https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210608/No-point-vaccinating-those-whoe28099ve-had-COVID-19-Findings-of-Cleveland-Clinic-study.aspx

[MunoRN, RN]

On 6/10/2021 at 10:22 PM, myoglobin said:

For some most definitely (those over 70 with comorbid conditions) for those younger than say 30 the risk to benefit ratio becomes much more difficult to ascertain. If we also consider "antibody" status from previous Covid 19 infection then the risk to benefit balance become even more difficult especially given developing information on the risks of these vaccines. Recent research from the Cleveland Clinic underlines this point when people have been previously infected and have antibodies.  https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210608/No-point-vaccinating-those-whoe28099ve-had-COVID-19-Findings-of-Cleveland-Clinic-study.aspx

One of my most recent patients to pass away under my care was only a year older than me, and had a daughter the same age as mine and coincidentally the same age as one of my (nine years old).  I held-up the patient's intubation so that he could say goodbye to his wife and children, and the idea that his death wasn't worth avoiding through public vaccination is (MODERATOR EDIT)

The purpose of Covid vaccination in younger population is not because it prevents younger people from dying, it's because that's the only know way that we get beyond Covid and the widespread death that it causes.  

If you want to argue that you think it's better for society for a large portion of it to die off due to an otherwise preventable illness then that's fine, at least I can't argue with your rationale, but if you're going to argue that society is better off by people not getting vaccinated against a pandemic for reasons that have no scientific basis then you are just a horrible person, there's no getting around that.

And even by your own sources your 'previously infected immunity' argument is ***.  We do know that those who have been previously infected with covid will continue to carry various antibodies for a period of time, but there is no evidence that the specific types of antibodies and specific  immune responses necessary to prevent spread to others last beyond 3 to 6 months after infection.  Your suggestion that you don't pose a threat to others because you had a Covid infection a year ago is why we don't allow evidence of a previous infection to be equal to immunization, people who believe that's true clearly don't possess enough basic knowledge about the basic premises of viral transmission to be making those decisions.

(MODERATOR EDIT)

[NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN]

3 hours ago, myoglobin said:

Also the CDC releases concerns about Myocarditis in 18 to 24 year old people getting second vaccine dosages. Vaccines have risks and benefits and where the risks are lower with regard to the Virus (younger people) the relative risk of adverse vaccine side effects increases https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/10/covid-vaccine-CDC-says-heart-inflammation-cases-in-16-to-24-year-olds-higher-than-expected-after-second-shot.html . Another article expressing alarm at the over 2000% increase in myocarditis being seen in younger people getting the vaccine. https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/increased-risk-of-heart-muscle-inflammation-linked-with-mrna-vaccines-seen-in-ottawa  .

Are you aware that the majority of persons  who develop myocarditis yearly historically are children, especially healthy athletes with infection triggers VIRUSES?  So teenagers/young adults susceptible to this illness.

Quote

 

In 2013, about 1.5 million cases of acute myocarditis occurred.[6] While people of all ages are affected, the young are most often affected.[7] It is slightly more common in males than females.[1] Most cases are mild.[2] In 2015 cardiomyopathy, including myocarditis, resulted in 354,000 deaths up from 294,000 in 1990.[8][5]    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocarditis

Causes of Myocarditis

Quote

 

In children, viral infections are the most common causes for myocarditis. The most common viruses involved are:

• Parvovirus
• Influenza virus
• Adenovirus and coxsackie virus
• Viruses such as rubella, rubeola and HIV

 

Quote

 

Myocarditis is classified as a rare disease but is estimated to affect thousands of adults and children in the U.S. and around the world each year.  3.1 million cases of myocarditis were diagnosed in 2017

While we often associate cardiovascular conditions with elderly populations, myocarditis can affect anyone, including young adults, children and infants. In fact, it most often affects otherwise healthy, young, athletic types with the high-risk population being those of ages from puberty through their early 30’s, affecting males twice as often as females. Myocarditis is the 3rd leading cause of Sudden Death in children and young adults.

https://www.myocarditisfoundation.org/about-myocarditis/

 

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

On 6/10/2021 at 11:54 PM, MunoRN said:

One of my most recent patients to pass away under my care was only a year older than me, and had a daughter the same age as mine and coincidentally the same age as one of my (nine years old).  I held-up the patient's intubation so that he could say goodbye to his wife and children, and the idea that his death wasn't worth avoiding through public vaccination is (MODERATOR EDIT)

The purpose of Covid vaccination in younger population is not because it prevents younger people from dying, it's because that's the only know way that we get beyond Covid and the widespread death that it causes.  

If you want to argue that you think it's better for society for a large portion of it to die off due to an otherwise preventable illness then that's fine, at least I can't argue with your rationale, but if you're going to argue that society is better off by people not getting vaccinated against a pandemic for reasons that have no scientific basis then you are just a horrible person, there's no getting around that.

And even by your own sources your 'previously infected immunity' argument is ***.  We do know that those who have been previously infected with covid will continue to carry various antibodies for a period of time, but there is no evidence that the specific types of antibodies and specific  immune responses necessary to prevent spread to others last beyond 3 to 6 months after infection.  Your suggestion that you don't pose a threat to others because you had a Covid infection a year ago is why we don't allow evidence of a previous infection to be equal to immunization, people who believe that's true clearly don't possess enough basic knowledge about the basic premises of viral transmission to be making those decisions.

(MODERATOR EDIT)

How can you hold such a position and still support people like Dr. Fauci who actually participated in the funding of "gain of function" research which likely made this virus possible?  My position is simple:

a. Vaccines have risks and benefits.

b. For some people the benefits out weight the risks for others risks may out weight the benefits.

c.  Young people are at less risk from dying from Covid than older people.

d. Most evidence also suggests that those without symptoms are unlikely to transmit Covid.

e.  Younger people who have been previously infected with Covid 19 may be at even less risk of reinfection than those who get the vaccine (but have not been infected).  Therefore the risks associated with the vaccine are a higher consideration.

f.  Even the FDA/CDC is sufficiently concerned about adverse myocarditis events that they are calling for an emergency meeting.

g.  VAERS has had more reports of "adverse events" from these Covid vaccine(s)" than every other vaccine combined even if you look at a total of five years (in about six months for the Covid vaccine). While VAERS is not definitive it is a "signal" of the level of adverse events in spite of analysis that suggest that only 1% of actual events ever get reported to VAERS.  

10.  Workers at places like Methodist in Houston are suing against these mandated vaccines. 

(MODERATOR EDIT)

 How is it that I can both believe that you are profoundly incorrect (in your beliefs about mandatory vaccination) and at the same time wish you only love and success in your every endeavor and life (except in moving society towards totalitarian control) while you seem to harbor such animosity towards me ?   In the end your hate will only hurt you and tend to rot you from the inside if indeed you actually harbor such feelings and it isn't rhetoric as I  hope it is. Peaceful and loving debate where different ideas are exchanged is superior to "name calling".  

[toomuchbaloney]

On 6/11/2021 at 9:55 AM, myoglobin said:

(MODERATOR EDIT) How can you hold such a position and still support people like Dr. Fauci who actually participated in the funding of "gain of function" research which likely made this virus possible?  My position is simple:

a. Vaccines have risks and benefits.

b. For some people the benefits out weight the risks for others risks may out weight the benefits.

c.  Young people are at less risk from dying from Covid than older people.

d. Most evidence also suggests that those without symptoms are unlikely to transmit Covid.

e.  Younger people who have been previously infected with Covid 19 may be at even less risk of reinfection than those who get the vaccine (but have not been infected).  Therefore the risks associated with the vaccine are a higher consideration.

f.  Even the FDA/CDC is sufficiently concerned about adverse myocarditis events that they are calling for an emergency meeting.

g.  VAERS has had more reports of "adverse events" from these Covid vaccine(s)" than every other vaccine combined even if you look at a total of five years (in about six months for the Covid vaccine). While VAERS is not definitive it is a "signal" of the level of adverse events in spite of analysis that suggest that only 1% of actual events ever get reported to VAERS.  

10.  Workers at places like Methodist in Houston are suing against these mandated vaccines. 

(MODERATOR EDIT)

How is it that I can both believe that you are profoundly incorrect (in your beliefs about mandatory vaccination) and at the same time wish you only love and success in your every endeavor and life (except in moving society towards totalitarian control) while you seem to harbor such animosity towards me ?   In the end your hate will only hurt you and tend to rot you from the inside if indeed you actually harbor such feelings and it isn't rhetoric as I  hope it is. Peaceful and loving debate where different ideas are exchanged is superior to "name calling".  

Peaceful and loving debate doesn't include fear mongering about necessary vaccines, with misinformation and pseudoscience during a dangerous pandemic... (MODERATOR EDIT)

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

On 6/11/2021 at 12:45 PM, toomuchbaloney said:

Peaceful and loving debate doesn't include fear mongering about necessary vaccines, with misinformation and pseudoscience during a dangerous pandemic...that's what sociopaths engage in as evidenced by these threads. 

I would argue that characterizing the sincerely held opinions of others presented with information that they (in this case me) consider to be highly informative (albeit not definitive, but one worthwhile perspective) is the more negative behavior.  Civil discussion boards should feature a wide range of opinions which will often be quite diverse, opposing, and which some may consider misinformation.  I attempt to offer a different perspective that I am living in my own life. I do not ask that you agree, or even respect me. However, dispensing with names or labels is desirable. (MODERATOR EDIT)

[emtb2rn, BSN, RN, EMT-B]

And now back to the original thread...

“A federal judge threw out a lawsuit filed by employees of a Houston hospital system over its requirement that all of its staff be vaccinated against COVID-19.”

So, yes, your employer can require the covid vaccine.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-health-ef3a5d8c3bac429c3b47d8cf5d3866d7

[toomuchbaloney]

21 minutes ago, emtb2rn said:

And now back to the original thread...

“A federal judge threw out a lawsuit filed by employees of a Houston hospital system over its requirement that all of its staff be vaccinated against COVID-19.”

So, yes, your employer can require the covid vaccine.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-health-ef3a5d8c3bac429c3b47d8cf5d3866d7

So they will lose their employment just as the governor cuts of the federal unemployment benefits on 6/26.  Hopefully they won't be unemployed long, they aren't done with covid yet and the state's health system needs the workers.