Vaccination Mandating

Updated:   Published

nurses-how-do-you-feel-about-mandatory-vaccination.jpg.294320ed3f6c038a5851c2ebe17ee015.jpg

I'm in NY. Wonder how other NURSES are feeling about mandatory COVID vaccination?

"Seriously, no. The abundance of the scientific evidence is clear and in agreement.  The pandemic is dangerous.  Widespread illness and death is not economically sustainable.  The health system cannot continue to support wave after wave of covid.  Vaccination results in reduction of illness, hospitalization, death, disability, transmission and mutation of virus.  The vaccines are safe and effective."  

Amen to this!!!

4
Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Quote

I have already taken the risk of getting vaccinated. I however will not be vaccinating my children with potential mutagens considering that young children have mild covid19 infections. 

Hopefull there will be vaccine mandates for children to go to school to lessen the impact of poor parenting decisions. 

2
Up Vote Up Vote ×
4 hours ago, Sciencedude1 said:

I never refused to admit that side effects can occur from the covid19 infection. Yes I understand that the COVID19 can cause long lasting sequelae that is devastating and long lasting. Yes as far as we know acute side effects of MRNA vaccines encoding for spike proteins are rare but they still exist. All I have been saying is that we should respect the patient's autonomy to make health care decisions. Why because the vaccine has risks. It is the reason we ask for consent in regards to any medical procedure.

The scientific community is still working out what effects the s spike protein has on the human body. Most recently scientist in Sweden have conducted an in vitro study were s spike proteins entered the nucleus and inhibited DNA repair (Jiang & Mei, 2021). The protein that was inhibited was the BRAC1 which is responsible for repairing double stranded breaks in DNA (Jiang & Mei, 2021). Mutations in  genetic code encoding for the BRCA1 protein have been known to cause cancer. BRCA1 is a tumor suppressor gene (MedlinePlus, 2021). This is the first study that has shown this and needs to be repeated. It is important to know if this is true because the S spike protein could be a potential mutagen-Dr. Mikolaj Raszek. The scientist have proposed a solution to use mRNA encoding for components of the s spike protien instead of the whole s spike protein which is currently produced by the Pfizer and moderna vaccine (Jiang & Mei, 2021). 

Jiang, H., & Mei, Y.-F. (2021). SARS–COV–2 spike impairs DNA damage repair and inhibits v(d)j recombination in vitro. Viruses, 13(10), 2056. https://doi.org/10.3390/v13102056

Here is a video of a ph.d talking about the publication:

 

Here is a video of medical doctor, Dr. Bean talking about the same publication. 

I have already taken the risk of getting vaccinated. I however will not be vaccinating my children with potential mutagens considering that young children have mild covid19 infections. 

Sciencedude,

I am glad that you are looking at all sides.  

Cooler heads prevail. You are not alone.

2
Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Trauma ED.
9 hours ago, MunoRN said:

Again, you're suggesting that the risk vs benefit is equivocal between a covid vaccine and taking your chances with a covid infection.  This is simply wildly untrue.  And you're right, we should respect a patient's autonomy, spreading misinformation violates that autonomy.  

 

There a few similar en vitro studies, what I think you missed is that if their hypotheses are correct, they've come upon (another) strong argument for getting vaccinated.

The long term effects of a Covid infection don't appear fully explained by just the inflammatory processes triggered by the active viral infection period of a Covid illness, ARDS for instance.  That the virus can alter normal cell replication is one of the possible explanations for this.  

A virus utilizes a cell's nucleus to replicate, the vaccines don't utilize a virus to work, they use your cells to show your immune system what to watch out for, it's like a police officer going door to door with a picture of a criminal, they don't send the actual criminal to your house.

So if the proposed effect of Covid on DNA replication is correct, it's all the more important to avoid those effects by getting vaccinated since it's the actual virus that causes this issue, the vaccines do not.

You took some liberties with the author's conclusions since they did not claim that vaccines utilizing the full spike protein are potentially more harmful, they pointed out that partial spike proteins might provide a more robust immune response.

Covid infection is currently one of the leading causes of death in children, and like adults, sometimes surviving an infection isn't necessarily the best outcome.

The vast majority of kids won't die in a car accident, that doesn't mean it's good parenting to not put a seat belt on them.

Would love to see your source for "Covid infection is currently one of the leading causes of death in children" because I don't think the current data supports that. I am now looking to see if there is any such data to back your claim up since you provided no source to support the statement. As a supporter of the vaccine, I am also a supporter of providing factual information to people, especially non-medical people, so they are not having to make decisions based on hyperbole from either pole of the issue.

1
Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Trauma ED.
10 hours ago, MunoRN said:

Again, you're suggesting that the risk vs benefit is equivocal between a covid vaccine and taking your chances with a covid infection.  This is simply wildly untrue.  And you're right, we should respect a patient's autonomy, spreading misinformation violates that autonomy.  

 

There a few similar en vitro studies, what I think you missed is that if their hypotheses are correct, they've come upon (another) strong argument for getting vaccinated.

The long term effects of a Covid infection don't appear fully explained by just the inflammatory processes triggered by the active viral infection period of a Covid illness, ARDS for instance.  That the virus can alter normal cell replication is one of the possible explanations for this.  

A virus utilizes a cell's nucleus to replicate, the vaccines don't utilize a virus to work, they use your cells to show your immune system what to watch out for, it's like a police officer going door to door with a picture of a criminal, they don't send the actual criminal to your house.

So if the proposed effect of Covid on DNA replication is correct, it's all the more important to avoid those effects by getting vaccinated since it's the actual virus that causes this issue, the vaccines do not.

You took some liberties with the author's conclusions since they did not claim that vaccines utilizing the full spike protein are potentially more harmful, they pointed out that partial spike proteins might provide a more robust immune response.

Covid infection is currently one of the leading causes of death in children, and like adults, sometimes surviving an infection isn't necessarily the best outcome.

The vast majority of kids won't die in a car accident, that doesn't mean it's good parenting to not put a seat belt on them.

And again, to make sure I say it on the front end, I am a supporter of the vaccine and am vaccinated.

The CDC data doesn't seem to support your statement that COVID is a leading cause of death in children.

The CDC shows 2020-2021 595 deaths involving COVID 19 in children ages 0-17 out of a total number of 61,523 deaths from all causes.  That is less than 1% That does not make COVID 19 a leading cause or anywhere near a leading cause. On a side note, I didn't drill down farther, but recall hearing an MD on a news program recently discussing the deaths of these children and the fact that the majority had significant co-morbidities.

So, looking at the knowledge level of the average parent, the massive amount of mis/disinformation out in the world, we should not be telling parents they are terrible parents for being concerned/questioning about vaccinating their kids. All they know is this is a relatively new vaccine type with respect to the mRNA vaccines and their are legitimate discussions as to their efficacy and multiple doses and boosters required.

It is our duty to provide the data and then they make the informed decision/consent. With regard to the data: To "cherry pick" data is to be intellectually dishonest. I have seen many on here arbitrability dismiss studies that don't coincide with their preconceived ideas or beliefs that are from medical institutions that are respected. If I am asked a question about data, e.g. myocarditis caused by a particular vaccine, or perhaps blood clot issues with another, I will provide what information is available. I also let them know that people who contract COVID can also contract these conditions as a result of COVID. Here is the issue. When asked if they can still "catch" COVID with the vaccine, I say yes, but the effects should be much milder. Then they say, well can I still have those other issues, e.g. the heart problem, "long COVID" etc? My answer is? IDK for sure. I still think the best option is to be vaccinated as that lessens the risk. The problem is too many high and mighty want to treat lay people as children and have them just do as we say. I say, no thank you to that.

I also include 2018 and 2019 data for leading causes of death, the most current with complete statistics, for some context.

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-04-tables-508.pdf

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-09-tables-508.pdf

 

1
Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
5 hours ago, RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN said:

Would love to see your source for "Covid infection is currently one of the leading causes of death in children" because I don't think the current data supports that. I am now looking to see if there is any such data to back your claim up since you provided no source to support the statement. As a supporter of the vaccine, I am also a supporter of providing factual information to people, especially non-medical people, so they are not having to make decisions based on hyperbole from either pole of the issue.

Isn't it more prudent to look first and comment second? 

In kids 5-11, deaths from COVID this year are tied with suicides at the 8th leading cause of death. 

https://www.CDC.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-2-3/03-COVID-Jefferson-508.pdf

4 hours ago, RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN said:

 

The CDC data doesn't seem to support your statement that COVID is a leading cause of death in children.

The CDC shows 2020-2021 595 deaths involving COVID 19 in children ages 0-17 out of a total number of 61,523 deaths from all causes.  That is less than 1% That does not make COVID 19 a leading cause or anywhere near a leading cause.

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-04-tables-508.pdf

Put that number you just posted into the data you just posted.

3
Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
11 minutes ago, BostonFNP said:

Isn't it more prudent to look first and comment second? 

In kids 5-11, deaths from COVID this year are tied with suicides at the 8th leading cause of death. 

https://www.CDC.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-2-3/03-COVID-Jefferson-508.pdf

Put that number you just posted into the data you just posted.

The long time members here like MunoRN, you, and others know better that to make statements unsupported by the data and evidence. 

    The newer people haven't figured that out yet.

2
Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Critical Care.
9 hours ago, RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN said:

Would love to see your source for "Covid infection is currently one of the leading causes of death in children" because I don't think the current data supports that. I am now looking to see if there is any such data to back your claim up since you provided no source to support the statement. As a supporter of the vaccine, I am also a supporter of providing factual information to people, especially non-medical people, so they are not having to make decisions based on hyperbole from either pole of the issue.

 

8 hours ago, RETNAVYTHENMEDIC2RN said:

And again, to make sure I say it on the front end, I am a supporter of the vaccine and am vaccinated.

The CDC data doesn't seem to support your statement that COVID is a leading cause of death in children.

The CDC shows 2020-2021 595 deaths involving COVID 19 in children ages 0-17 out of a total number of 61,523 deaths from all causes.  That is less than 1% That does not make COVID 19 a leading cause or anywhere near a leading cause. On a side note, I didn't drill down farther, but recall hearing an MD on a news program recently discussing the deaths of these children and the fact that the majority had significant co-morbidities.

So, looking at the knowledge level of the average parent, the massive amount of mis/disinformation out in the world, we should not be telling parents they are terrible parents for being concerned/questioning about vaccinating their kids. All they know is this is a relatively new vaccine type with respect to the mRNA vaccines and their are legitimate discussions as to their efficacy and multiple doses and boosters required.

It is our duty to provide the data and then they make the informed decision/consent. With regard to the data: To "cherry pick" data is to be intellectually dishonest. I have seen many on here arbitrability dismiss studies that don't coincide with their preconceived ideas or beliefs that are from medical institutions that are respected. If I am asked a question about data, e.g. myocarditis caused by a particular vaccine, or perhaps blood clot issues with another, I will provide what information is available. I also let them know that people who contract COVID can also contract these conditions as a result of COVID. Here is the issue. When asked if they can still "catch" COVID with the vaccine, I say yes, but the effects should be much milder. Then they say, well can I still have those other issues, e.g. the heart problem, "long COVID" etc? My answer is? IDK for sure. I still think the best option is to be vaccinated as that lessens the risk. The problem is too many high and mighty want to treat lay people as children and have them just do as we say. I say, no thank you to that.

I also include 2018 and 2019 data for leading causes of death, the most current with complete statistics, for some context.

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-04-tables-508.pdf

https://www.CDC.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr70/nvsr70-09-tables-508.pdf

 

Covid is currently the 8th leading cause of death in children and in August/September was the 6th leading cause of death in children.  

I would grant you that "a leading cause of death" is up to some interpretation, typically that's referred to as a top 10 cause of death but I could have been more specific.

COVID-19 continues to be a leading cause of death in the U.S. in September 2021 - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

4
Up Vote Up Vote ×

Anyone can create a Youtube video and draw little pictures. ?

6
Up Vote Up Vote ×
On 11/14/2021 at 2:47 AM, BostonFNP said:

If your concern is that spike proteins are potential mutagens, you understand that even a "mild covid19 infection" in a young child would expose them to orders of magnitude more spike proteins and thus result drastically larger exposure to the potential mutagen?  

This is why I’m convinced that the Youtube videos and linked abstract was only posted here as an attempt to scare people off the vaccines. Any nurse would know that if what the researchers have found will be supported by further studies, that makes a Covid infection really bad news. Sciencedude never mentioned the risk of an infection, the sole focus is on the vaccine. As if the whole virus magically no longer contains the full spike protein…

On 11/14/2021 at 2:17 AM, Sciencedude1 said:

The scientist have proposed a solution to use mRNA encoding for components of the s spike protien instead of the whole s spike protein which is currently produced by the Pfizer and moderna vaccine (Jiang & Mei, 2021). 

Jiang, H., & Mei, Y.-F. (2021). SARS–COV–2 spike impairs DNA damage repair and inhibits v(d)j recombination in vitro. Viruses, 13(10), 2056. https://doi.org/10.3390/v13102056

Well, there are already some RBD-based Covid (non-mRNA) vaccines available, and I’m sure more will follow in case you don’t fancy getting for example the Cuban Abdala Covid vaccine…

https://www.dw.com/en/cubas-covid-vaccine-rivals-biontech-pfizer-moderna/a-58052365

(not a scientific journal, but I’m guessing most of you aren’t going to get this vaccine any time soon, so I just included it to show that there are options out there if one doesn’t want a full-length spike-based vaccine). 

Here’s some information about RBD-based Covid vaccines:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8553742/

 

By the way Sciencedude, you only linked the abstract. Here’s the full text. Have you read it?

https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm
 

On 11/14/2021 at 2:17 AM, Sciencedude1 said:

I have already taken the risk of getting vaccinated. I however will not be vaccinating my children with potential mutagens considering that young children have mild covid19 infections. 

How is it that you are more afraid of a vaccine than an infection if the spike protein is a ”mutagen”? You do realize that you get a whole lot more spike protein with an infection, don’t you?

The use of the term mutagen here, isn’t strictly correct. If what the researchers have found will indeed prove to be accurate, then what the covid virus’ spike protein could do is to affect DNA damage repair by impeding the recruitment of several repair proteins to the site of damage.

Here’s some interesting information if you want to read up on mutagens.

https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/mutagen

 

Did you notice that the researchers in the study you linked studied the repair of cells after they’d been damaged by gamma irradiation, an anthracycline chemotherapy drug and hydrogen peroxide? If the results of the study is supported by future studies what, if any, effect might a Covid-19 infection during treatment by one of the first two have on normal tissue repair? There are a lot of questions that need answers, and the questions are bigger than just the vaccines. We can make vaccines in different ways, and not include the whole spike protein, but how do we remove the spike protein from the virus itself? We can’t. 

 

 

4
Up Vote Up Vote ×
19 hours ago, macawake said:

This is why I’m convinced that the Youtube videos and linked abstract was only posted here as an attempt to scare people off the vaccines. Any nurse would know that if what the researchers have found will be supported by further studies, that makes a Covid infection really bad news. Sciencedude never mentioned the risk of an infection, the sole focus is on the vaccine. As if the whole virus magically no longer contains the full spike protein…

Well, there are already some RBD-based Covid (non-mRNA) vaccines available, and I’m sure more will follow in case you don’t fancy getting for example the Cuban Abdala Covid vaccine…

https://www.dw.com/en/cubas-covid-vaccine-rivals-biontech-pfizer-moderna/a-58052365

(not a scientific journal, but I’m guessing most of you aren’t going to get this vaccine any time soon, so I just included it to show that there are options out there if one doesn’t want a full-length spike-based vaccine). 

Here’s some information about RBD-based Covid vaccines:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8553742/

 

By the way Sciencedude, you only linked the abstract. Here’s the full text. Have you read it?

https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/10/2056/htm
 

How is it that you are more afraid of a vaccine than an infection if the spike protein is a ”mutagen”? You do realize that you get a whole lot more spike protein with an infection, don’t you?

The use of the term mutagen here, isn’t strictly correct. If what the researchers have found will indeed prove to be accurate, then what the covid virus’ spike protein could do is to affect DNA damage repair by impeding the recruitment of several repair proteins to the site of damage.

Here’s some interesting information if you want to read up on mutagens.

https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/mutagen

 

Did you notice that the researchers in the study you linked studied the repair of cells after they’d been damaged by gamma irradiation, an anthracycline chemotherapy drug and hydrogen peroxide? If the results of the study is supported by future studies what, if any, effect might a Covid-19 infection during treatment by one of the first two have on normal tissue repair? There are a lot of questions that need answers, and the questions are bigger than just the vaccines. We can make vaccines in different ways, and not include the whole spike protein, but how do we remove the spike protein from the virus itself? We can’t. 

 

 

You are arguing based on science.  But, you are arguing against a political philosophy.

Great that you take the time to debunk didinformation, but don't expect much.  It's like telling somebody with a fundamentalist understanding of the bible that the earth is more than 5,000 years old.  They have their evidence.  

4
Up Vote Up Vote ×
3 hours ago, hherrn said:

You are arguing based on science.  But, you are arguing against a political philosophy.

Great that you take the time to debunk didinformation, but don't expect much.  It's like telling somebody with a fundamentalist understanding of the bible that the earth is more than 5,000 years old.  They have their evidence.  

Oh trust me, I know.. Most of the time when I reply in the Covid-19 threads, my post isn’t really aimed at the poster I’m responding to. I guess it bugs me to see a nursing site inundated with disinformation  and repeated attempts of promoting vaccine hesitancy. Truth be told I’m not even sure who it is that I’m trying to get through to… I figure that most people have already chosen a ”side”. Most licensed healthcare professionals are on the side of the vaccines and public health promotion, but a vocal few keep spreading their fears and ”concerns”. (As I’ve said before, I’m not convinced that all posters are actually healthcare professionals. But some are, and that’s in my opinion troubling).

I definitely don’t think that I will change anyone’s mind, but perhaps calm a few who might start experiencing unease about the vaccines after reading post after post of disinformation. I’m trying to offer a nudge back towards reality and science, in case someone mistakenly starts to worry that the sheer volume of disinformation somehow means that it has substance (no smoke without fire type phenomenon). But mostly it’s just that I don’t think disinformation or cherry-picking studies according to preformed biases and poor interpretations of scientific studies should be allowed to exist unchallenged on a nursing site. 

So much ”concern” being shared about the vaccines. Very little concern about the virus itself. 

6
Up Vote Up Vote ×
+ Join the Discussion