Religious Exemptions

[Guest219794]

I am against religious exemptions.

I give all deeply held beliefs equal credibility.   My belief system may be informed by organized religion, but it is not defined by organized religion.  And I do not believe an employer is capable of determining which beliefs are valid.

Millions in this country believe the earth is 5,000 years old, and that Eve came from one of Adam's ribs.  That is as scientifically grounded as Q-annon's BS.  Or the belief in Ivermectin.  Or my beliefs.  Beliefs, in my mind, are all equal, and unrelated to pandemic management.

I like this approach:

 

[Guest219794]

1 hour ago, Soloist said:

I take issue with your first point. Many times a religious group has formed a position on something that prior would not have even been a consideration.

For example, prior to the TV the Conservative Mennonites had no stance on the TV. The Amish prior to electricity had no stance on electricity. 

Again prior to abortion being a practice, the Christians had no specific statement on abortion. 

The basis of objection to the vaccines on the use of fetal cells does not agree with you or the majority of people, but religious groups have always suffered for their beliefs. Some of them I would question and find too far but I would find it lamentable if we have no tolerance for religious beliefs. 

That being said, I'm not here to debate you but Title 7 of the Federal code makes no stipulations of the conviction. It does however, have a stipulation of reasonable accommodations which one could argue should be in effect for medical preventing exemptions from vaccines. 

Even if you accept that religious beliefs somehow trump any other belief system, (I don't) this particular group is making a mockery of religious exemptions.  

"The basis of objection to the vaccines on the use of fetal cells does not agree with you or the majority of people, but religious groups have always suffered for their beliefs."

It is not a question of whether one's objection to fetal cell use is agreeable or not.  The actual basis of most objections is political, and unrelated to fetal cells.  Actual religious objectors are hurt the most by this crap.

[klone, MSN, RN]

I had an employee (not my direct report) come talk to me yesterday. Our organization has given until 10/29 to become fully vaccinated (which means they will have to get their first dose within the next week). I have offered to vaccinate anyone who wants their booster, or wants to start the series. She originally said she would, but then came into my office and said she was going to wait to see if her exemption was approved. I asked what kind of exemption she applied for, and she said religious. I then asked her what her objections were, and her response was "The vaccine is just too new. It scares me." 

So yeah, I think the religious exemptions are ***. The only people in healthcare who should be exempt from getting the vaccine are those who had an anaphylactic reaction to the first dose, or a documented anaphylactic reaction to PEG.

It also pisses me off that people are using religion to lie about why they don't want to get the vaccine. Not very Christian of them.

[JKL33]

10 hours ago, Soloist said:

I take issue with your first point. Many times a religious group has formed a position on something that prior would not have even been a consideration.

It doesn't need to be 100% specific. But if a religion-related belief is important enough to refuse to participate in public health efforts during a pandemic then the basic structure of the objection would already be there as part of the group's beliefs and the group would already be actively observing the belief. If a group has a sincerely held belief about use of fetal cell lines in research then they would be out ahead of the idea that they should know which medications, therapies and products have employed the type of research to which they object. It seems like if this was a concern of the group/sect/religion they would have watchdog groups that are up to speed and report on such things in order to inform the group, keeping an exhaustive list of medications, therapies and products that violate the beliefs. It also seems like they wouldn't do any business with any companies that employ the technology to which there is an objection.

It is a different thing when the religious group happens to agree with a political philosophy against something and then searches for religiously-themed ways to object, without basic knowledge of whether that particular religious objection is actually being carefully observed in their day-to-day lives.

Again, the reason I think proof of exhaustive efforts is appropriate here is because this is a pandemic and people are refusing to participate in a public health effort--so they themselves have raised the bar as far as what the rest of us should expect their religious objection to mean to them. This isn't "my group doesn't use stimulants so I will drink water when we visit Starbucks," it's "fetal cells so I'm not participating in the public health vaccine effort even though there's a pandemic and even though I've never tried to find out about any other substances I should be avoiding based on my beliefs." And those who don't even have a fetal cell objection (as per klone's example) should just be told to go away, period. "Too new" is not a religious objection of any kind whatsoever.

[elkpark]

On 9/30/2021 at 8:56 PM, toomuchbaloney said:

Abortion predates Christianity.

Not only that, but organized Christianity has gone for long periods of time without having any particular position on or objection to it.  The vehement objections by some (certainly not all) Christians nowadays is a comparatively (historically speaking) recent phenomenon.

[toomuchbaloney]

28 minutes ago, elkpark said:

Not only that, but organized Christianity has gone for long periods of time without having any particular position on or objection to it.  The vehement objections by some (certainly not all) Christians nowadays is a comparatively (historically speaking) recent phenomenon.

It's propaganda used to manipulate emotions and voting habits of American Christians. Propaganda works. 

[NurseTara3]

Love Love Love the intelligence of these posts!  Thank you for restoring my faith in science and truth!

[CommunityRNBSN, BSN, RN]

Honestly, in my work in an outpatient clinic, I have come across many people who want “religious exemption” paperwork signed in order to be excused from flu or Covid vaccines. I can’t recall a single patient who actually had a religious or philosophical opposition. When we asked them what the nature of their opposition was, the answers were “I just don’t believe in putting that in my body,” “They can change my DNA,” “They are just trying to make money,” and “I always get sick after I get a flu shot.”  If someone has a REAL philosophical objection— such as fetal testing or an opposition to medical care because of a belief that God directs healing— I am happy to consider those on a case-by-case basis, but from my perspective on the ground, that seems to be vanishingly rare. Everyone else is just taking advantage of the “religion loophole”!

[Guest219794]

My point is actually that your religious beliefs have 100% validity.  What I don't believe is that they are any more valid than my personal beliefs.  Or any deeply held personal beliefs. I don't believe that the formal structure around an organized religion belief system elevate them above anybody else's.

It is much like being a "conscientious objector" during war time.  This exemption is typically associated with organized religion, but even the US military accepts atheist conscientious objectors.

The beliefs against vaccines are just that- beliefs.  They are no more required to be logical than a prohibition against mixing certain fabrics in clothing, as some Jews do, or the belief in immaculate conception, as believed by many Christians.  The anti-vax beliefs are as scientifically grounded as the belief that the earth was created in 7 days.

Hospitals and governments do not belong in the role of determining the legitimacy of a belief system.   

Covid is neutral on the subject.  It  considers all belief systems to be equal.  It does not care why you are not vaccinated.  Neither should hospital administration.

There are plenty of examples where certain beliefs are incompatible with certain jobs.  This is one of them.

 

[traumaRUs, MSN, APRN]

A large mega-church in my area is advertising that they offer religious exemptions: 

PEORIA (WEEK) -- A local church is joining the vaccine mandate debate by helping their parishioners get religious exemptions.

A statement on Northwoods Community Church's website says vaccine mandates are an "infringement" on Constitutional rights.

"It is Northwoods Church’s commitment to support those who attend our church who feel led to receive the vaccine as well as those who—as a direct leading from God through the Holy Spirit—feel led not to participate in the vaccination process," the statement says.

Local attorney Shaun Cusack says religious exemptions are protected by the Civil Rights Act, but their concerns must stay religious and not political.

"Nine times out of 10, it's the parishioner or somebody coming to the church, not the church putting up a big red flag saying 'Hey we offer these exemptions if you want one,'" Cusack said.  

"It's interesting and unexplored in the legal realm."

Cusack says what the church is doing is legal, but that certain sections of their statement do toe the line between religion and politics.

"They need to be very careful about how it's worded because you don't want to run your parishioner into an issue where they're dealing with their employer and their employer is saying, 'This isn't religious. This is political. We're not going to honor it," Cusack said.

A parishioner would need to have their request approved in order to receive a letter from Northwoods to give to their employer. Cusack says that letter from a church might not be a golden ticket though because case law isn't clear about how to prove a religious exemption.

Meanwhile, other local pastors have taken a different approach by offering the vaccine at their places of worship. Marlon Young is the pastor at Morning Glory Community Church in Peoria.

"I'm a proponent of free choice, but when free choice doesn't do what it's supposed to do, I'm a proponent of doing what's necessary to protect the people," Young said.

Northwoods Community Church did not respond to a request for a comment.

[Nursenezz]

There are many forms of religious exemptions and why people file for this. It could be conviction from GOD and nothing else....it could be a number of things.  It doesn't have to be about fetal cells.?

Like you,  You could even make up your religion (?pick and choose what you like and don't like about organized religion)  and have your own rules and get exempt. The company doesn't have to agree with you or believe in what you do for it to be approved.  Like it or not.   

You cannot prove or disprove. 

This is why religious exemptions are important in the USA...Millions base not only their day, but their lives on their religion. 

[Zantros, ASN]

I agree this whole religious shenanigan is a mess. There are those who want the vaccine because it works. There are those who detest it because they want to express their free will and have confidence in their immune system. The issues are you can still spread it, the virus is not that deadly although has a potential for nasty after effects, and you are at risk for getting it now matter what you choose. 

Right down the middle, you should let people choose. When you take away other's ability to choose we enter into a type of medical fascism that is unforgivable. Aside from conspiracy theories I've heard those who deny covid or the vaccine fear the vaccine more than the virus itself. Some of those people then contract corona then wish they had gotten vaccine. 

I will admit though if you are a healthcare professional AND a covid denier than you should leave the field. Coronaviridae is the second most common family of virus' known to man the first being rhinovirus. 

[heron, ASN, RN]

On 10/6/2021 at 9:21 AM, Nursenezz said:

There are many forms of religious exemptions and why people file for this. It could be conviction from GOD and nothing else....it could be a number of things.  It doesn't have to be about fetal cells.?

Like you,  You could even make up your religion (?pick and choose what you like and don't like about organized religion)  and have your own rules and get exempt. The company doesn't have to agree with you or believe in what you do for it to be approved.  Like it or not.   

You cannot prove or disprove. 

This is why religious exemptions are important in the USA...Millions base not only their day, but their lives on their religion. 

Y’all need to remember that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion.