My I'm going to medical school

yohanes9 · Oct 13, 2015

I didn't need to reed the whole thread, you are a disgrace for Healy care careers not because you want to go no med school it is because how you refer to the most human and dedicated career in the world! You think that med school is so great that MD is so greater than nursing? Well you are wrong and it seems that you will be the kind of person that after a while will talk bad about dr! But every head is a different world! I wish you the best but respect the community in this site which the majority are RN who are proud of their career and want to become APN or what ever they want! I could get it for med school but I never wanted it because they just see patients like money!!!! ( not all), so if you hate nursing log off of this site quiet your job as an RN and go to school for 7 more years an you will see how that career "RN" had more that what you are going to learn!! You will see hot APN's will work by your side!

Dranger · Oct 13, 2015

Guys, attacking grammar or post delivering is very ad hominem like and just detracts from posting credibility.

NP school is just too laissez faire in nature and anyone who just stops and thinks knows it.

Jules A, MSN · Oct 13, 2015

Guys, attacking grammar or post delivering is very ad hominem like and just detracts from posting credibility.
NP school is just too laissez faire in nature and anyone who just stops and thinks knows it.

It isn't the OPs intended deviations that concern me although I didn't understand all of it, lol. Anyone who has read a post or two of mine recognizes I'd never be mistaken for an English major and normally I could care less but wow some of the responses in general on this board and particularly this thread are shocking. It appears nursing school graduates are lacking in areas other than physiology and pharmacology.

OCNRN63, RN · Oct 13, 2015

I was going to reply, but it would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Oct 13, 2015

Guys, attacking grammar or post delivering is very ad hominem like and just detracts from posting credibility.

Normally I would totally agree, but there is something deliciously ironic about someone complaining that NP programs have totally "dumbed down" their requirements, all the while demonstrating that he can't put together two coherent sentences.

db2xs · Oct 13, 2015

As it were, the two fields are different. So I don't see the point of this thread other than someone venting their frustration at their current career. For any of us who are second-career practitioners (me being one of them), I understand needing to vent about a career. The grass always looks greener on the other side.

Regarding the "Dr." title, we should protest against PhDs being called Dr because, sheesh, they are not doctors, right?

Good luck to the OP.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Oct 13, 2015

Usually if a college is advertising its program, its probably not going to make you a whole lot of money and/or provide good job prospects. Sort of like buying a car, the easier it is to buy, the bigger the shaft they are breaking off in you.
I mean who really thinks that something as easy to accomplish as a masters in nursing will continue to pay as much as it does? Nursing school isn't overly difficult to finish/get into, neither are the masters or bachelors. Engineering, medicine, other math, and those professions that have a barrier to entry will continue to pay well into the future. There is more than likely a direct correlation between the level of offense somebody takes to this post and the severity of a hit his or her career will take in regards to the flood of oncoming masters prepared nurses. It seems to more successful ones of the bunch take this a little more lightly. Don't be blinded by self-bias, the flood is coming my friends, and you do not want to drown in the sub-70000 salary tidal wave that is coming to wash away your dreams of a home, car, and whatnot.
btw, while i was reading this 15 adds popped up on this website saying I can change the world with an DNP. So obviously as soon as that diploma hits my hand hunger, HIV, obesity, and all those other world problems will be cured. Unless of course by changing the world they mean feeding the investors in these online for profits a daily steak dinner for the rest of eternity, guaranteeing them and their loved ones a new BENZ, and adding on a new garage to their already huge mansions.
All you people who spend ridiculous amounts of loan money on these rip off schools are a bunch of suckers. Even a car salesman for land rover would have pity on your soul.
Americans and their dreams... its what investors feed off of, and many of you have fallen right into that trap.
How does this relate to the above post? Theres only one for profit medical school in the country, and probably 500 nursing ones. Just a rough estimate regarding the number of for profit nursing schools, but anyway, don't think for one second the credentialing bodies aren't getting a big chunk of change from this. The AMA is probably just as greedy, but at least they don't feed off of their own kind. But again, nurses are know to eat their young, both at work, and in the financial markets.

You know, in spite of your poor delivery, I do think you make some very good points here. I hope you realize, however, that even MDs are being sucked into the *&^#hole that is now the US healthcare system. Doctors no longer bring in the big bucks they once did, for all the "barrier to entry" that remains in the field. The hassles with insurance providers for substantially reduced reimbursement, the huge debt, etc., no longer compensate so well for the long years of education and the continued time, effort, long hours, etc., required to stay afloat in this profession.

I would damn sure do things differently, knowing what I now know. My husband has a Bachelor's degree in finance from a second tier university. He put himself through school selling trophies to little league teams, so he graduated with no debt. He makes seven figures annually and doesn't lose a huge portion of his income to malpractice insurance premiums, loan payments, etc., and doesn't have to spend inordinate amounts of his time trying to be appropriately compensated for his hard work by greedy insurance providers or clients who lack the means to pay for his services. My DH could reasonably laugh at all of the brilliant but idealistic pre-meds who believe that being a doctor will provide the same high standard of living as it once did simply because admission standards remain incredibly high and the education is as rigorous as ever. He could point out the irony of a pre-med scoffing at nurses about their "American dreams," or could chuckle about the naivete of a future doctor labeling "people who spend ridiculous amounts of loan money" on these schools as "a bunch of suckers." He could, but he's nicer than I am, so I am doing it instead.

I think anyone who enters health care with an eye towards making a bunch of money has been had. And that includes you, OP.

PG2018 · Oct 13, 2015

Doctors see patients just for the money?

Why the heck do you see patients!?

I see them for money because my family and I developed this bad habit - we like to eat. Geez, you think if most of us won a big lotto that we'd keep working?

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Oct 13, 2015

Geez, you think if most of us won a big lotto that we'd keep working?

I would! I have this determination to have an active license all the way into my 80s. I worked too hard for that damn thing.

Of course, I don't work very much any more, but I'm still out there! I'll be that PRN nurse who still shows up from time to time when she's old and still thinks everyone believes her hair is really brown because she "has really good genes."

tbaughm · Oct 13, 2015

Yah and writing a post like you are the bullying quarterback from the movie The Waterboy doesn't detract at all from posting credibility. :no:

allnurses Guide · Oct 13, 2015

I intially read the post and thought "I don't like what he's saying" but as I though about it I think I really just didn't like the way it was said. So here are my thoughts about some of the major points you made. Maybe some others will realize that they agree with the content.

Never before besides law and maybe the MBA have I ever seen such a large amount of specific programs pop up. Every school in america seems to have a masters level nursing program in their academia. This includes the notorious for-profit schools that everybody excluding people who hold degrees from these institutions seem to loathe.

Didn't you post in another thread about going into law next?

The nature of the statement though is correct. NP programs are increasing exponentially, although I think it seems like there are more than there really are (about 370 in the US), though this doubles the number of medical schools. The number of NP graduates per year has more than doubled in the past 10 years.

Our credentialing bodies, by allowing all of these poorly regulated programs to pop up

They don't seem to be doing enough, I agree. The should have never allowed programs to detacth themselves from providing preceptors. This, IMHO, is the biggest problem right now. If it was corrected, the non-quality programs would wane as preceptors began to associate with only quality programs.

job availability will decrease severely in the next few years.

This issue is one of the double-edged swords of APN vs physician. Physicians have controlled entry to practice to keep demand and wages high for a long time. To that end they have created a primary care deficit which has opened the doors for APN independent practice. APN programs are churning out graduates to fill this deficit and as they do so, access to care improves while NP demand/wages also fall. If we keep the primary care deficit high enough to maintain higher wages, are we aren't any better at improving access to care than physicians are/were.

Low barrier to entry. This is where the nail gets hit on the head. Essentially, to keep enrollment high, higher level nursing programs (excluding a few from higher end schools) have DROPPED their admission standards, in fear that somebody will go to another program instead of their own. NO GRE, NO GPA, NO EXPERIENCE, NO INTERVIEW. I mean come on people, really??? Your so money hungry you will lower your admission standards just to get more applicants and provide more seats. At least in the medical world, schools keep it competitive, for which is mostly to make their school look better.

I went to a quality school with a quality reputation for several decades. When I applied the admission rate was less than for two local medical schools. It was very selective which allowed the program to be rigorous which allowed production of quality providers. That program remains selective, but there are now 4 other local programs that have significantly less admission standards. Unfortunately I know that there are quality programs that deny student and actually refer them to these less selective programs. That concerns me.

It's not that a student with a weaker admission application can't be a great NP, they can, it does mean that the less selective programs surround that individual with a weaker curriculum and weaker colleagues and reduces their chances of reaching their potential, at least initially.

Role confusion. This is not prevalent everywhere, but even with all these nurses pushing for education of the np model to patientsâ€ a large amount of people still don't know what we are. PAGING DOCTOR NURSE, DOCTOR NURSE. I mean how ridiculous does that sound. DOCTOR NURSE??? while the DOCTOR NURSE complication may be DNP and PHD specific, there is much confusion to a nurse wearing a while coat, prescribing medication, etc (not anything wrong with it but it is confusing to patients)

Role confusion runs rampant around APNs, sadly most of it comes from other nurses. I don't agree with you here that patients are confused. Most patients want quality care from a provider that listens to them. They could care less whether that person is a MD or a DO, a physician or a NP, an RN or a CNA. Most patients would rather call the person taking care of them a "doctor" or a "nurse" regardless of degree.

This white coat and doctorate education issue isn't between physicians and nurses because pharmacy and therapy have doctorates and white coats too. (Actually attendings in my hospital wear suits not white coats). There is quite a bit of research about this out there.

Weaksause curriculum. I am sure there are very difficult schools out there that provide the MSN needed to obtain the overly sought nurse prackkâ€ status, but many of these online programs at for-profit universities have really dumbed the requirements. I know of many schools that require no closed book tests, being the only one you take is your majorly feared BOARD EXAM, which was so notoriously easy i don't see how anybody can fail it.

There are absolutely programs with weak curriculum that teach to an exam (the boards). Its a shame.

I have been involved with teaching both in-person and online, and to be honest, I have no problem with open-book exams, provided they are appropriately challenging (which I am not sure they are) and/or done with a time constraint. The reason I feel this way is that it teaches novice NPs to use resources in practice, which I think is very important to providing quality care.

The boards were beefed up over the past few years but they remain a minimum competency exam. I am actually astonished that the fail-rate is 15-20% between the different exams. On that note, the pass rate for the USMLE is 95-97% nationally.

But anywayâ€¦. it is too easy, to short, and does not always prepare people for the level of knowledge required to do his or her job.

I agree that education does always prepare novice providers for their role. I think this is true of nursing and medicine. Medicine has a way of handling that: residency. Nursing has a way of handling that: collaborative practice requirements. Novice providers in both disciples are exposed to the role under supervision.

If anybody else wants to follow me through a more difficult and rewarding pathway than advance practice nursing can provide, you will reap the rewards of the hard labor you shall put forth, if not, enjoy the last few years of excellent salary guarantee (excluding excellent providers, which most people think they are but they are not even close) and wallow in your despair once your fighting for jobs that pay a couple grand more than RN positions.

Hope you are planning on a specialty and you make the residency cut for it, because I am not sure most primary-setting physicians are so happy with their lives either. Most PCPs make 10-20% more than NPs after $400k in debt, taking night and weekend call, and getting paid less than minimum wage for 3-5 years during residency. And in the end, they deal with the same administrative red tape crap that NPs deal with, and most work for a large healthcare system that sees them as a productivity number. Unless you are an orthopedic surgeon, dermatologist, or other high-paid specialty, the grass might not be greener.

If you goal is $500K+/year there are easier ways with less hoops to jump through than nursing or medicine.

Actually, I think that's part of this NP-rush. Nurses at the bedside are pretty well paid compared to other jobs but the work sucks so people want to take the next step up to a provider where again they are well paid compared to other jobs but that work also sucks. I always tell perspective NPs that the only really good reason for wanting to be an NP is to provide quality cost effective care. If you don't love the role then you won't love the job.

I happen to be one of those that loves the role and the job, I just hope that the opening floodgates don't mean the outcome studies start being effected, because once that happens, the future is going to take a nosedive. I mean that the future of independent practice, I think regardless of how bad NP outcomes were, physicians will be happy to hire them, as they still create revenue.

Barnstormin' PMHNP · Oct 13, 2015

BostonFNP, very well said, as usual.