My I'm going to medical school

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Oct 13, 2015

Hope you are planning on a specialty and you make the residency cut for it, because I am not sure most primary-setting physicians are so happy with their lives either. Most PCPs make 10-20% more than NPs after $400k in debt, taking night and weekend call, and getting paid less than minimum wage for 3-5 years during residency. And in the end, they deal with the same administrative red tape crap that NPs deal with, and most work for a large healthcare system that sees them as a productivity number. Unless you are an orthopedic surgeon, dermatologist, or other high-paid specialty, the grass might not be greener.
If you goal is $500K+/year there are easier ways with less hoops to jump through than nursing or medicine.

Even some of the specialties are complaining that they are having a lot more trouble being reimbursed.

And you are correct that the best paid specialties are now CUT THROAT competitive. You have to be the absolute cream to get those residencies. Very very few MDs are going to have the standard of living which once used to be common among physicians. Most docs I know have told me that they would never encourage their kids to go into medicine.

My DH does work very hard indeed for his money, but it's a cake walk compared to what would be required of a doc to make the same compensation. Most will never be able to, and it has nothing to do with brains, competency, or what they can contribute in terms of affecting patients' lives.

Everyone needs to put food on the table, and there is NOTHING wrong with wanting to make a very good salary, but I think people who go into medicine thinking they are going to make boatloads of money but don't at least have some level of passion for the profession are going to be quite disillusioned. There is no longer utopia in the field of American healthcare, not that there ever really was. Things have not gotten better and I do think the OP is right about a lot of what he wrote.

sauce · Oct 13, 2015

i know the OP in real life and no he is not going to do it for the money. We both went to the same school and pretty much chose the medical field out of interest and hes still interested in the medical field. We have had conversations about doing other things but I mean like everybody knows if you want to make the big bucks without regard to what you are doing, the best bet would be financial engineering and/or computer science related stuff. The demand for people who can do calculus based calculations on computers and actually understand that stuff will always be in higher demand than everything else since not everybody wants to stick it out to understand the complex math we have discovered in the past 200 or so years.

but if somebody wants to work in the medical field, being a physician is usually the best bet, either that or a particle physicist that controls dosing on chemo and such. They can make six figures easily with less schooling. If you can work your way through all the calculus based physics and stuff.

I forgot to mention sales, many of the car dealer people around my parts make well into six figs without a college degree. Of course its only the top salesman, but if you are as money hungry as they are it can be done without too much problem.

but back on topic, I thought about going back to school like the OP but just do not want to put the time into it. Would it be worth it in the long run? Yes. People here seem to have some inaccurate skew of what some specialties make. ER in rural areas is one of the highest paying specialties, for which the physician providers make around four times that of one of the pa or np in the same setting.

Doctors keep their salaries on the hush hush, and make much more than proclaimed oftentimes on the internet. Not counting the ability to form medically related business (owning a nursing home is very profitable if you understaff it and blame bedsores on hospital admissions) but again you have to be ruthless in many cases.

Anyway, nurse practitioner school was a cake walk and like dranger says if you disagree you probably have very poor study habits. Pretty sure my undergraduate chemistry class was harder than anything experienced in my asn bsn and/or msn program, and we went to a BM school with a decent rep. Most nurses are not cut out to be nurse practitioners since the level of commitment is much higher.

One of the lower paid ER docs i know makes 350k per year, sleeps most of the shift, and got like 5 20k bonuses during one year. Not amazing money but if you love the medical field you wont get that in another other position.

Nursing will always be just nursing and those who try to make it something it is not probably should have done something else. You can't turn every career path into a phd level profession. When you try it just makes you look silly.

End rant.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Oct 13, 2015

i know the OP in real life and no he is not going to do it for the money. We both went to the same school and pretty much chose the medical field out of interest and hes still interested in the medical field. We have had conversations about doing other things but I mean like everybody knows if you want to make the big bucks without regard to what you are doing, the best bet would be financial engineering and/or computer science related stuff.

Investment banking, commercial real estate development/investment also come to mind.

allnurses Guide · Oct 13, 2015

Look at some of the salaries, I know I was surprised: https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html

For primary setting providers it's $160-180k as a starting salary. That's more than NPs by a significant amount, however, the average work week is 54 hours and most have more than $300K in loans to repay.

On the other side, their potential is much higher.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Oct 13, 2015

Look at some of the salaries, I know I was surprised: https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html
For primary setting providers it's $160-180k as a starting salary. That's more than NPs by a significant amount, however, the average work week is 54 hours and most have more than $300K in loans to repay.
On the other side, their potential is much higher.

It's certainly better than your average Joe can make for some specialties. However, they don't make that kind of money right out of med school. The amount of education and post med school education required to get there is mind boggling, not to mention expensive. I believe these docs earn every penny they make, but there is blood on every one of them. And they spend years paying off their loans and paying for malpractice insurance is a major hit. One needs to consider salary hand in hand with loan repayment and malpractice premiums. Those two things alone will eat up a disheartening amount of that paycheck, and we aren't even talking about federal and state income taxes. That a major OUCH for a profession which requires so much of them.

allnurses Guide · Oct 13, 2015

It's certainly better than your average Joe can make for some specialties. However, they don't make that kind of money right out of med school. The amount of education and post med school education required to get there is mind boggling, not to mention expensive. I believe these docs earn every penny they make, but there is blood on every one of them. And they spend years paying off their loans and paying for malpractice insurance is a major hit. One needs to consider salary hand in hand with loan repayment and malpractice premiums. Those two things alone will eat up a disheartening amount of that paycheck, and we aren't even talking about federal and state income taxes. That a major OUCH for a profession which requires so much of them.

Absolutely.

Farawyn · Oct 14, 2015

I would! I have this determination to have an active license all the way into my 80s. I worked too hard for that damn thing.
Of course, I don't work very much any more, but I'm still out there! I'll be that PRN nurse who still shows up from time to time when she's old and still thinks everyone believes her hair is really brown because she "has really good genes."

Those are the best nurses ever.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Oct 14, 2015

I would just like to clarify that I'm still VERY far from being in my 80s!!!!! And my hair is still "believably" brown!

ambr46 · Oct 14, 2015

I had to stop reading. The post seems frantic and harried like a train going off the rails...into a place I do not want to go.

blondenurse12, MSN, NP · Oct 14, 2015

Overall, I disagree with the OP's attitude but he does make a few solid points. Not all NP programs are created equally. I am actually quite satisfied with the program I attended. I went to a state university with a solid reputation. They have about 500 applicants per year and take 50. Typically 10 either fail out or drop out of each class of 50. You must achieve an 80% or better to pass a class. You may only fail one class and re-take it to get a passing grade. If you fail more than one class, you are expelled. We had to complete approximately 1000 clinical hours to graduate and had to take rigorous pathophysiology and pharmacology courses.

In undergrad, I did think I wanted to be a physician. I, unfortunately, am not great at math so I couldn't pass calculus. But, in the end, I'm happy it didn't work out. I'm in much better financial shape than if I would have gone to medical school. I can diagnose and treat a myriad of issues, I'm not over here trying to perform neurosurgery. NPs have their place and most are good at it.

twozer0, NP · Oct 14, 2015

One point I think that needs mentioning on here is that school does not make the nurse. A better school can and will provide better resources for a person to achieve more. When I started my first job I thought I knew a lot but in reality, I knew nothing. I learned more my first year on the job than I ever learned in my ADN and BSN combined. This concept is true for a myriad of professions, especially allied health fields. Its easy to criticize the amount of programs popping up but like Boston pointed out it doesnt mean we will have a lot of bad eggs on our hand. I think those that chose schools with better resources will fare better in the transition but ultimately it is up to the person to become good at their job. I do think having a strong nursing background will provide for a better NP. There are equally bad docs as there are good ones and its like this with every job. If your heart is in it and you're willing to learn post school, the sky is the limit. I think this is why NP's have such great outcomes.

cayenne06, MSN, CNM · Oct 16, 2015

The debt is the bad part >.>
I will say though, that for the most part that whoever governs the nurse anesthesia group seems to have their stuff together pretty well. I know the market is also narrowing for CRNAs, but it also seems to be for anesthesiologists in a lot of areas. But i do not see the CRNA market to take a beating like the prackyprack market will. If only the ancc and aanp would follow suit.

Wonder if it's a coincidence that CRNAs, unlike any other nursing specialty ( going on recollection here so please feel free to correct me), is dominated by men.