i don't want my post to be the venue for an LPN-RN debate...this is just my opinion about the topic...
i understand that not EVERYBODY want to be an RN and that NOT everyone stays as an LPN...different situations calls for a different approach...we as nurses should be bonded and not debate amongst ourselves of who has the best career...it's hard enough explaining to the lay person what we do and how important we are and not "just nurses"...that we don't need to badmouth each other...
They didn't post a URL, but you were informed that the study along with a rebuttal and supporting comments were published in Nursing Magazine (March 2004, Vol. 34, No. 3, RN Education: A Matter of Degrees. page 48). Here is a URL where you can buy the article, but I would suggest getting a subscription to the magazine- it's very much worth the $. http://www.nursingcenter.com/library/JournalArticle.asp?Article_ID=493596
Some of the problems noted about the study:
The hospitals with higher ADN staff numbers were noted to have fewer technological resources and higher workloads that the ones with more BSNs (and no adjustments were made for this), overall nursing experience of the staff, the examination of hospitals from only 1 state, a low (52%) response of nurses surveyed, the pt age data wasn't adjusted for general mortality rates, etc. You can read the article for yourself and conclude what you will, though.
Thank you my Kentucky friend. Yes, I didn't have time to surf the net last night looking for the info for this poster. I figured that if he/she was truly interested and scholarly, he/she would find the rebuttals easily by simply doing a search with the information given in the previous post. We all know about statistics and what can be done with them.
This has nothing to do with respect. I am not an RN, I am a student nurse. However I am not your average student nurse. I hold a M.S. in chemistry, and am intimately acquainted with the process of scholarly research, whether it be nursing, chemistry, physics, or botany... I previously made reference to a study authored by Dr. Linda Aiken concerning the education levels of nurses and surgical patient mortality. (If you care to read back a bit, I provided a URL) Some of my colleagues here chose to summarily dismiss the study, which was published in JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association). JAMA is a scholarly, peer-reviewed publication. Rather than express professional skepticism, a few responded with emotion and vitriol. This area needs more investigation.
In all other fields, more education is accepted as leading to more positive outcomes. Why is that so difficult a concept for nursing?
Actually, the concept is not difficult for most of us in nursing, it's the study, that is in question...junk science, at best.
I find this, as well as all arguments concerning higher education to exist in most areas. I belong to several higher education internet boards that I visit nearly everyday. And always, ALWAYS, there are those posters who knock anyone whose education is not a far along as their's. I'm really not sure why this truly is except that it must just be a human failing among us. The bachelor trained people knock those who are working on their bachelors, the master's slam the bachelors, the PhD's walk over top of every one with great superiority and disdain. You would think higher education would lead to more grace in dealing with people. Unfortunately, it seems to do the reverse. And I think it's actually learned in the universities and colleges, a sort of covert thought that is insinuated into lectures, etc., a permission granted to be an *** to all those who are unworthy (not as educated).
One who has truly mastered ALL the meanings within higher education and training does not tout their credentials and laud them over those they work with and engage with daily in their lives. They don't automatically assume and know that they are "better". They understand that true worth is learned by doing, not sitting in a classroom evaluating "theories" or doing research.
I have always remembered what it was like to be a student nurse and have always tried to be good to my students once in practice. As I get ready to go for my masters degree, I can tell you my heart will always lie with the LPN's and ADN's I've worked with. They are the heart and mind of nursing practice (and isn't that what you are claiming you are "better" at?). For those who want to flount their degrees and credentials over everyone, fine. Just keep that in mind when the next MD belittles and berates you. You can tell him/her how educated you are, not that it will matter to him, he's got more than you! You will never be an MD and are therefore inferior.
Step back and look at what your attitude does to those around you. Be humble. Be thankful that you were forturnate to find a way to increase your knowledge and know that not everyone's life worked out like yours, but that doesn't make them inferior and it doesn't make you superior. It only makes you look foolish and petty.
You would think higher education would lead to more grace in dealing with people. Unfortunately, it seems to do the reverse. And I think it's actually learned in the universities and colleges, a sort of covert thought that is insinuated into lectures, etc., a permission granted to be an *** to all those who are unworthy (not as educated).
Step back and look at what your attitude does to those around you. Be humble. Be thankful that you were forturnate to find a way to increase your knowledge and know that not everyone's life worked out like yours, but that doesn't make them inferior and it doesn't make you superior. It only makes you look foolish and petty.
You said a mouthful!! Educational elitists among us show their insecurities when they constantly tout their superiority. They show their need to 'be better' than others. After we've lived awhile and done this work awhile, we generally see that learning occurs in many other places besides universities and classrooms. And altho there are higher education snobs everywhere, they are not necessarily good at their jobs. Other factors play in.
I so disdain educational snobbery that it has been a deterrent to my completing my BSN. I could never stand the propaganda I suspect goes on in too many BSN classrooms, and I don't want to be a part of that.
and PS: I work in ICU with LVN's who can run circles around some of the RN's with their professionalism and knowledge base. They followed their hearts to critical care seminars, topics, CEU's, etc. Their personal drive, intelligence and interest caused them to seek other ways to learn what they wanted to know. I respect that.
As a former LPN I remember getting frustrated when RN's would chide me 'you need to get your RN'. Some of them I misunderstood I'm sure, but to me it seemed I was not worthy. Let's be careful how we talk to one another.
As a former LPN I remember getting frustrated when RN's would chide me 'you need to get your RN'. Some of them I misunderstood I'm sure, but to me it seemed I was not worthy. Let's be careful how we talk to one another.
I've finally gotten to the point of saying "well i'd kinda like to finish THIS school year out before you give me anymore idea on what i should do with my life" to the ones who CONSTANTLY give me the "you need to" speech. I mean heck, this is hard enough, and to get a "this is what you should do" lecture just grates my nerves.
Specializes in LTC,Hospice/palliative care,acute care.
Originally Posted by Plato
LPNs are not professional nurses. They have the word "nurse" in their title, but so does a CNA. An LPN is an assistant to the RN. A CNA, is also an assistant to the RN. The LPN is given technical tasks like dressing changes and med administration, and the CNA is given rudimentary tasks like ADLs and VS.I won't even argue this one. If someone wants to dress up like a nurse andpretend, that's fine with me. But a nurse is a Registered Nurse. >QUOTE
:stone: the way you post honey....you sound like a troll...::shudder::
Just to clarify :nurseunderwater copied a quote from my post that I copied from Plato...as I said Plato's banning from this board and others speaks for itself...
I am an LPN student, every RN I talk to says "get your RN, keep going to school." I think they just want to encourage you to never stop learning, and that they know there are more opportunities for RN's.
Just to clarify :nurseunderwater copied a quote from my post that I copied from Plato...as I said Plato's banning from this board and others speaks for itself...
ktwlpn.....sorry... i thought when i cut and pasted from your post, i didn't have your name attatched..... plato's banned...no idea.
PS: I edited to take out your screen name....my apologies again for the oversite.... :imbar
They didn't post a URL, but you were informed that the study along with a rebuttal and supporting comments were published in Nursing Magazine (March 2004, Vol. 34, No. 3, RN Education: A Matter of Degrees. page 48). Here is a URL where you can buy the article, but I would suggest getting a subscription to the magazine- it's very much worth the $. http://www.nursingcenter.com/library/JournalArticle.asp?Article_ID=493596
The article was published in Nursing. This publication is not a peer reviewed, scholarly journal, unlike JAMA in which Dr. Aiken's study appeared. Dr. Sharon Bernier (President, National Organization for Associate Degree Nursing) issued comments critical of the study. These concerns were addressed by Linda Aiken. This article is not the result of research. It's more like an op-ed piece.
I think it's a good piece of ground breaking work. The relationship between educational backgrounds of hospital RNs and patient mortality needs to further investigated.
The article was published in Nursing. This publication is not a peer reviewed, scholarly journal, unlike JAMA in which Dr. Aiken's study appeared. Dr. Sharon Bernier (President, National Organization for Associate Degree Nursing) issued comments critical of the study. These concerns were addressed by Linda Aiken. This article is not the result of research. It's more like an op-ed piece.
I think it's a good piece of ground breaking work. The relationship between educational backgrounds of hospital RNs and patient mortality needs to further investigated.
There are far too many confounding variables for a genuinely causal relationship to be assessed.
Specializes in Trauma,ER,CCU/OHU/Nsg Ed/Nsg Research.
Give it time- I'm sure there will be research done to refute Aikins' study. Although, I find it highly improbable that it'll appear in a journal such as the AJN, because it's affiliation with the ANA- who has held the BSN-as-entry-level stance for decades. Also, most of your published researchers are ANA and FAAN members- why would any of them come out with pro-ADN research results??? This is not a new argument, and the variables mentioned in the rebuttal are valid. Where is the comparison of death rates within 1 of the hospitals with more advanced technology prior to and after they received this technology? Where are the nurse-to-patient ratios mentioned? And further, when the age related mortality rates are compared to those with the U.S. as a whole (not just from 1 PA hospital to the other), it has been said that the ones with a higher # of ADNs fared more favorably.
Just because the study was printed in JAMA, does not mean it is without fault. There have been studies in there since its inception that refuted former studies. And this one has had too many variables not taken into account. It's driven by politics more than anything.
Wouldn't it be great for them if they actually could force us all to get BSNs and pay us 25 cents more an hour for it like they want to do? And I'm someone who is starting a BSN/MSN program this summer.
orrnlori, RN
549 Posts
Thank you my Kentucky friend. Yes, I didn't have time to surf the net last night looking for the info for this poster. I figured that if he/she was truly interested and scholarly, he/she would find the rebuttals easily by simply doing a search with the information given in the previous post. We all know about statistics and what can be done with them.