i don't want my post to be the venue for an LPN-RN debate...this is just my opinion about the topic...
i understand that not EVERYBODY want to be an RN and that NOT everyone stays as an LPN...different situations calls for a different approach...we as nurses should be bonded and not debate amongst ourselves of who has the best career...it's hard enough explaining to the lay person what we do and how important we are and not "just nurses"...that we don't need to badmouth each other...
Give it time- I'm sure there will be research done to refute Aikins' study. Although, I find it highly improbable that it'll appear in a journal such as the AJN, because it's affiliation with the ANA- who has held the BSN-as-entry-level stance for decades. Also, most of your published researchers are ANA and FAAN members- why would any of them come out with pro-ADN research results??? This is not a new argument, and the variables mentioned in the rebuttal are valid. Where is the comparison of death rates within 1 of the hospitals with more advanced technology prior to and after they received this technology? Where are the nurse-to-patient ratios mentioned? And further, when the age related mortality rates are compared to those with the U.S. as a whole (not just from 1 PA hospital to the other), it has been said that the ones with a higher # of ADNs fared more favorably.
Just because the study was printed in JAMA, does not mean it is without fault. There have been studies in there since its inception that refuted former studies. And this one has had too many variables not taken into account. It's driven by politics more than anything.
Wouldn't it be great for them if they actually could force us all to get BSNs and pay us 25 cents more an hour for it like they want to do? And I'm someone who is starting a BSN/MSN program this summer.
All good points, that will I fear, fall on the deaf ears of the possible educational elitists among us. (I too am starting prereqs for an MSN to start in 2005, we can be depressed together!). Let's see, estrogen DOES cause increased chances of breast cancer, no it doesn't, yes, it does, no it doesn't, it has cardiac implications, no it doesn't. JAMA never publishes thoroughly peer reviewed research that has been wrong. Oki-dokeeeeeee!
Specializes in Trauma,ER,CCU/OHU/Nsg Ed/Nsg Research.
All good points, that will I fear, fall on the deaf ears of the possible educational elitists among us. (I too am starting prereqs for an MSN to start in 2005, we can be depressed together!). Let's see, estrogen DOES cause increased chances of breast cancer, no it doesn't, yes, it does, no it doesn't, it has cardiac implications, no it doesn't. JAMA never publishes throughtly peer reviewed research that has been wrong. Oki-dokeeeeeee!
I totally agree with your statement about JAMA not publishing "thorough peer-reviewed" incorrect research. And even if they DID peer review this particular study, they wouldn't KNOW what variables to take into account, because they aren't nurses. And we know all to well how much Doctors know about what it is we do. I have to laugh about the Estrogen comment, too- you are so right! :rotfl: I remember reading a JAMA study a few years ago that stated cigarette smoking causes agoraphobia. I know all kinds of agoraphobic smokers- don't you? :chuckle
And Lori- it'll be great to have someone like you to be depressed with. :rotfl:
As far as the LPN vs ADN, etc. debate goes, I was a CNA, am now a LPN, will soon be an ASN, and will go on from there. Do I feel that I'm a better nurse now that I'm almost done with my ASN? No. I do know that I'll have more responsibility, money, etc. I was a good LPN (read nurse) to begin with. And in reality, I know that when I get my MSN, I will certainly not be a better nurse- I'll just be working in a different arena. I'm lucky, though- only a couple of my coworkers have ever shown me any kind of disrespect because of my licensure. They caught on eventually, though. Be proud of your LPN, and wear it like a badge of honor. It IS something to be proud of, and it IS an accomplishment to have gone through the rigors of an LPN program.
I'd like to see a show of hands from those bedside nurses who have actually gone on to get their BSNs from ADN, and can say that they are more capable now than they were then. I would take their opinions into account in this, because they've been-there-done-that. The opinions based on faulty research done by a BSN educator is another story.
Specializes in LTC,Hospice/palliative care,acute care.
Big difference in responsibility between LPN and RN.
Most of us do know that...however many RN's do not realize the depth of our training and our scope of practice.....we are sometimes looked upon as being slightly more educated then a cna and this is incorrect...Some call us "little pretend nurses" and refuse to admit that we have a valuable role in health care....I am confident in my abilities and not threatened by other's attitudes...
While the study endorses the bachelor's degree as the best path for producing quality nurses, the point of the research is not to worry patients about the care they receive in hospitals with few baccalaureate-trained nurses, said study author Linda Aiken, a professor of nursing at the University of Pennsylvania. The study shows an association between factors, but doesn't prove that one caused the other.
There!!!! There's her own words quoted directly from a quick surf. It doesn't prove that one causes the other. Cause and effect, it's not there, only the association of factors. Anyone with an once of psychology research background or any background in research or classes in research or classes in statistics (and I'm enrolled in a bugger of a senior level stats class right now) knows that for research to be meaningful it must show cause AND effect to be connected. Otherwise it's just data. None of the things that lgflamini repeated here were taken into consideration in this study. I don't doubt Dr. Aiken's research as far as it goes, but it is insufficient in depth to draw the kinds of conclusions that it drew when first published.
LPNs are not professional nurses. They have the word "nurse" in their title, but so does a CNA. An LPN is an assistant to the RN. A CNA, is also an assistant to the RN. The LPN is given technical tasks like dressing changes and med administration, and the CNA is given rudimentary tasks like ADLs and VS.I won't even argue this one. If someone wants to dress up like a nurse andpretend, that's fine with me. But a nurse is a Registered Nurse. >QUOTE
Quote-TIONA
Excuse me, I am a newly licensed LVN. In clinical I passed meds, inserted f/c, supra-pubic caths, ng tubes, wound care, head to toe assessments, nursing diagnoses, nursing process, charting, communication with physicians and families.... I had clinicals in OB/GYN, postpartum, pediatrics, urology etc, etc, etc. I went to care plan meetings on behalf of my patients etc. etc. I am a WELL EDUCATED LVN! I'm pround to be an LVN. My practice act states specifically that I AM a "professional nurse". Read it. It is people like you that causes strife and combat within this field and takes the focus off of GOOD patient care. Petty.>QUOTE Tiona,honey don't waste your time...search Plato's other posts and you'll see that they have resulted in her (or him )being banned....A good LPN knows her scope of practice and is comfortable with her skills and the opinions of someone like this person can not impact on that....Some RN's like Plato really have no idea WHAT our training entails or what our responsibilities are in some settings.-or how much autonomy we often have.And the ANA does not recognize us as professional nurses because they don't want us taking jobs away from RN's..just as they are figthing against the use of UAP's....if only our LPN organizations were as actively fighting for us...
Yeah, I've figured it out. Thanks for the "heads up." This thread has been quite an educational experience for me and will help me understand the complexity of my work environment. I'd really like to be more politically involved, but I'm finding zero LVN publications or organizations. We need to unite!
Yeah, I've figured it out. Thanks for the "heads up." This thread has been quite an educational experience for me and will help me understand the complexity of my work environment. I'd really like to be more politically involved, but I'm finding zero LVN publications or organizations. We need to unite!
I think the easiest way to discredit the Aiken study would be to create whole other groups of association in the same sample hospitals. All you would have to do is find just one other highly associated variable and the whole castle would crumble.
Lexi, a graduating BSN who still hasn't forgotten how silly all the extra classes really are and who values all her brothers and sisters in nursing. :kiss
An LPN publication. there's one for Rns too. It's also free.
Thanks yes, I have subscribed. This Advance publication seems to cater to the a specific part of the country. Does anyone know of any West coast organizations and/or publications?
orrnlori, RN
549 Posts
All good points, that will I fear, fall on the deaf ears of the possible educational elitists among us. (I too am starting prereqs for an MSN to start in 2005, we can be depressed together!). Let's see, estrogen DOES cause increased chances of breast cancer, no it doesn't, yes, it does, no it doesn't, it has cardiac implications, no it doesn't. JAMA never publishes thoroughly peer reviewed research that has been wrong. Oki-dokeeeeeee!