Is someone justified in harassing someone to tell them if they got vaccinated or not?

KathyDay · Aug 10, 2021

At Maine Medical Center, there is a COVID outbreak among nurses in the ER....9 of them are infected. There are more on different floors and areas of the hospital The Maine CDC is doing an outbreak investigation. I have been told (no article yet to back it up) that 2 of those ER nurses were fully vaccinated....so that leaves 7 who were not? How is that happening? Why aren't nurses accountable to our co workers and patients. I was relieved to find out that MSNA (Maine State Nurses Association), the union that represents the MMC nurses are in favor of vaccine mandates...except for legitimate medical or religious reasons. Ask each other about vaccine status, and offer up yours. It isn't a secret....vaccination is a TOOL to help get us out of this pandemic...along with masking.

chare · Aug 10, 2021

2 hours ago, Wuzzie said:

2 hours ago, K. Everly said:

Someone else’s choice to share or not share their vaccination status? Because that is purely what I am talking about and what keeps getting hijacked in this conversation for a pro vs. anti vaccination debate.

Yes, because if I have to interact with them then I need to know I'm safe. If they aren't vaxed then they will have to wear a mask and I will conduct my business with them in a safer environment. If they are already wearing a mask then I don't need to ask. Unfortunately many of the people who are choosing not to vax also feel that wearing a mask somehow strips them of their rights.

I understand your concern. However, years ago when I took my EMT course, the instructor continuously stressed that when in doubt, assume the person you were interacting with had something that you didn't want to take home. I thought this good advice then, and even better advice now. My wife and I still mask, and assume that whomever we are interacting with is not vaccinated, regardless of whether they mask, or not.

Wuzzie · Aug 10, 2021

6 minutes ago, chare said:

I understand your concern. However, years ago when I took my EMT course, the instructor continuously stressed that when in doubt, assume the person you were interacting with had something that you didn't want to take home. I thought this good advice then, and even better advice now. My wife and I still mask, and assume that whomever we are interacting with is not vaccinated, regardless of whether they mask, or not.

That is not a new concept for me however this is a different situation. I always mask and if the people I need to interact with are not vaccinated I expect them to mask as well. If they are vaccinated I would hope they would also but they are much less of a risk to me than someone who has not been vaccinated. Please note, I said "less risk" not "no risk" as I am perfectly aware that there is a chance that the vaccinated may also spread the virus. My experience has been that the un-vaccinated I have come in contact with bristle at the concept of wearing a mask. Therefore I do not feel it is unreasonable for me to ask what their vax status is if they are unmasked in order to gauge my risk and adjust as necessary. If they refuse to answer then they need to mask up.

K. Everly, BSN, RN · Aug 10, 2021

20 minutes ago, Wuzzie said:

Therefore I do not feel it is unreasonable for me to ask what their vax status is if they are unmasked in order to gauge my risk and adjust as necessary. If they refuse to answer then they need to mask up.

You can have all the expectations in the world, but if people don’t feel the “need” to do whatever you strongly desire them to do, they won’t do it.

I’m not making a judgement call about whether that is right of them to decline to do what you’re asking of them, I’m just stating the facts. Because we can’t and don’t control others, it’s incumbent upon each of us to do what each of us individually feels is right to keep ourselves safe.

Again, I’m not assigning a value to the facts, just stating them. I can choose to operate within an empowered personal position where take full responsibility for my thoughts, feelings and actions, or I can be upset with others for not behaving in ways I strongly believe are best.

We each have that choice.

Furthermore, how safe is it really to take people at their word on their vaccination status and use that information to make personal decisions about one’s own safety behaviors..?

Wuzzie · Aug 10, 2021

2 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

You can have all the expectations in the world, but if people don’t feel the “need” to do whatever you strongly desire them to do, they won’t do it.

If they don't "feel the need to" then they can do without whatever they need me for.

2 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

Furthermore, how safe is it really to take people at their word on their vaccination status and use that information to make personal decisions about how our safety..?

I always consider the source.

I believe the question I was answering is if it's okay to ask someone if they are vaccinated. I have not changed my mind. If they are going to be near me out of necessity I have every right to ask their status. I do not, however have the right to harass them. They, of course, have the right to not answer but we all know that their unwillingness is an answer.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 10, 2021

44 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

You can have all the expectations in the world, but if people don’t feel the “need” to do whatever you strongly desire them to do, they won’t do it.

I’m not making a judgement call about whether that is right of them to decline to do what you’re asking of them, I’m just stating the facts. Because we can’t and don’t control others, it’s incumbent upon each of us to do what each of us individually feels is right to keep ourselves safe.

Again, I’m not assigning a value to the facts, just stating them. I can choose to operate within an empowered personal position where take full responsibility for my thoughts, feelings and actions, or I can be upset with others for not behaving in ways I strongly believe are best.

We each have that choice.

Furthermore, how safe is it really to take people at their word on their vaccination status and use that information to make personal decisions about one’s own safety behaviors..?

OK

The defensive individual who is annoyed by being asked about vaccination status is going to continue being annoyed. They have the right to be annoyed. The fact that they are annoyed by having their vaccination status questioned during a pandemic is sort of idiotic, but they can be idiotic if they prefer. I think that they should be glad that most people ask them politely.

K. Everly, BSN, RN · Aug 10, 2021

34 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

OK

The defensive individual who is annoyed by being asked about vaccination status is going to continue being annoyed. They have the right to be annoyed. The fact that they are annoyed by having their vaccination status questioned during a pandemic is sort of idiotic, but they can be idiotic if they prefer. I think that they should be glad that most people ask them politely.

I agree. Being annoyed is a personal right, whether it’s actually helpful to them or not ?

And I agree that when people ask me politely and I choose to decline, I am grateful that they chose to be kind in their approach and that I choose to kindly decline to answer their question.

1 hour ago, Wuzzie said:

… If they don't "feel the need to" then they can do without whatever they need me for…

That’s true, you have a total right to ask them. If they refuse to answer your question and you’re in the middle of helping them, I would totally understand saying “okay, do it yourself then.”

1 hour ago, Wuzzie said:

If they don't "feel the need to" then they hey, of course, have the right to not answer but we all know that their unwillingness is an answer.

I see where you’re coming from, but would it shock you to know I am vaccinated for everything under the sun, including Covid, and yet at least 90% of the time I decline to share that information? Not everybody who likes their privacy is doing so because they haven’t been vaccinated.

Wuzzie · Aug 10, 2021

11 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

I see where you’re coming from, but would it shock you to know I am vaccinated for everything under the sun, including Covid, and yet at least 90% of the time I decline to share that information? Not everybody who likes their privacy is doing so because they haven’t been vaccinated.

Yes, but if I told you I am at a higher risk because I have severe asthma I would think there would be a quid pro quo. At least from a decent person. If someone, even a patient, refuses to answer or mask I have no problem whatsoever walking out of the room.

GrumpyRN, NP · Aug 10, 2021

10 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

...but would it shock you to know I am vaccinated for everything under the sun, including Covid, and yet at least 90% of the time I decline to share that information?

Why on earth would you not answer that question? It is a teaching moment. Your answer should be, "Of course I am vaccinated. Why wouldn't I be?" Then use it as a teaching opportunity.

I could understand if they were asking about your HIV status or your sexual proclivities, but vaccination? In the middle of a pandemic?

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Aug 10, 2021

25 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

I see where you’re coming from, but would it shock you to know I am vaccinated for everything under the sun, including Covid, and yet at least 90% of the time I decline to share that information? Not everybody who likes their privacy is doing so because they haven’t been vaccinated.

If I were vaccinated and had an immunosuppressed patient whose concerned wife wanted to know if I were vaccinated, the only reason I can think of to refuse to answer is because I find it amusing when my patients are stressed and worried and looking for ways to at least reduce their chances of becoming infected with a deadly disease. And I would hate for them to know that I follow science and understand risk vs. benefit and community health. Good times!

toomuchbaloney · Aug 10, 2021

30 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

And I agree that when people ask me politely and I choose to decline, I am grateful that they chose to be kind in their approach and that I choose to kindly decline to answer their question.

Declining to answer the question is rude, IMHO. We're in the middle of a dangerous pandemic and your vaccination status is relevant in this moment, whether you like that or not.

KathyDay · Aug 10, 2021

13 minutes ago, Horseshoe said:

If I were vaccinated and had an immunosuppressed patient whose concerned wife wanted to know if I were vaccinated, the only reason I can think of to refuse to answer is because I find it amusing when my patients are stressed and worried and looking for ways to at least reduce their chances of becoming infected with a deadly disease. And I would hate for them to know that I follow science and understand risk vs. benefit and community health. Good times!

There is certainly nothing amusing about patients wanting to know that their caregivers are doing all they can to reduce their chances of infections. Take it from an old retired nurse whose father died of hospital acquired MRSA pneumonia....and NONE of the family were ever told they had an outbreak. Also, we would never have known about the infection if I hadn't badgered the doctors to death to do sputum cultures because he was not responding to treatment. First they infected him, then they failed to diagnose him, then they couldn't treat him...he was too far gone (sepsis, etc). There is nothing amusing about families and patients wanting to stay safe.