Is someone justified in harassing someone to tell them if they got vaccinated or not?

macawake, MSN · Aug 9, 2021

11 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:

1. It's no one's biz if she has or has not been vaccinated. Unless the employer forces staff to display this info where everyone else at work can see it, one's vax status is private.

Other posters have already replied to you, but since your post was in response to a post I made, I will reply as well.

My point was simply this, why wouldn’t you answer a friend or coworker who asks about vaccination status.

I think it’s an easy question to answer. I care about my friends, or they wouldn’t be my friends. I also care for the absolute majority of my coworkers. The very few I don’t care for that much, I still do not wish harm upon. So when asked, for me it’s the natural choice to put their minds at ease. I simply don’t see a reason to play the ”it’s no one’s business” card.

11 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:

2. The FDA has not given full approval to these vaccines. We who receive it are the guinea pigs.

It’s only a matter of time. I’m guessing sometime this fall for the mRNA vaccines. And no, guinea pigs is not the accurate term to use. You have likely administered medications to your patients, that didn’t come close to the size of the phase 3 trials that the vaccines went through before being granted EUA.

11 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:

3. The vaccines are not perfect, they do not prevent all cases of the killer COVID viruses, particularly the variants. And it looks like there will be no real end to the variants. The virus wants to live, so it is mutating. Unless maybe some evildoer keeps "leaking" it from some lab somewhere. Make no mistake, this is a real possibility.

No one is cooking up variants in some lab somewhere, and releasing them to the world. That’s not a rational theory or suspicion, and no evidence exists to support it. What would be the point? To what end would some ”evildoer” be manufacturing variants? With the very high level of global transmission that we have, the virus is doing just fine on its own.

The virus doesn’t ”want to live”. Mutations occur when the virus replicates and because the RNA genome of SARS-CoV-2 has a pretty sloppy replication factory, many errors are made. The SARS-CoV-2 virus can actually mutate each nucleotide hundreds of times, in a single infected individual. Oh, and the genome is about 30,000 nucleotides long. These mutations can be neutral, advantageous (for the virus, not us), or deleterious.

The other way the virus can change is through recombination.

The only way to stop mutations from happening, is to deprive the virus of access to new hosts to infect. We will likely never get zero transmission, but we need to do what we can. Vaccination is an extremely important part of this effort.

11 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:

4. There are side effects.

Well, yes. But many, many times milder and almost always less severe than the infection they protect against. So what is your point?

toomuchbaloney · Aug 9, 2021

42 minutes ago, macawake said:

As a European, I don’t agree with your self-assessment. You clearly do not value health over much of anything. If you did, you would actually have affordable healthcare available for all, instead of wealthcare. I would argue that it’s very hard to be genuinely free, when you don’t have your health and lack the means to maintain or regain it.

Why do you have the shortest life expectancy out of all rich nations?

When you say that history has made it abundantly clear that you can’t have lasting societal health, unless people are free, can you give an example of what you mean? I have my suspicions regarding what you might have in mind. But since they don’t make a logical argument due to not being anything close to attempting to improve public health, protect the economy and save lives, I’d appreciate if you could elaborate on the specific historical events you have in mind.

There’s a really interesting but sad graph in the following link.

https://ourworldindata.org/us-life-expectancy-low

The article was a good read. The graphic representations are really stunning, aren't they? My country has proven that a profit focused, fractured system of treating disease and rationing care based upon wealth is not effective or sustainable. We really need to decide that we do want to be a democratic republic and not some kind of an oligarchy with authoritarian rule.

Subee2, BSN, MSN, CRNA · Aug 10, 2021

6 hours ago, K. Everly said:

Your feelings, nor the feelings of anybody else, matter more than Rob's. They are worth no more, and no less. You may not like that Rob is irritated by being asked, but he has a right to feel however he does and he doesn't need your permission. Likewise, you don't need permission to feel however you do.

I am saddened that as a society we value health more than we value freedom. There can be no lasting societal health unless we are free. History has made that abundantly clear.

OMG. You are saddened that people value health more than freedom. Are you chaneling Laura Ingraham? Really Laura, is that you? One is never free to kill in out society. Life is the highest right. Freedom is a word than is cheap and misunderstood. No one has absolute freedom. People who break the social contract are really just superfluous.

K. Everly, BSN, RN · Aug 10, 2021

I'm not defending my country's current government, society values, nor medical system. I was stating the values that we were purported founded on, which were radical freedom and the right to self-determination.

To bring it back to the topic, my opinion on the topic of this thread is that nobody is owed information on somebody else's medical conditions or vaccination status. Could there be consequences for either sharing or not sharing the information? Yes.

We each are free to make a myriad of choices in this life but none of us is immune from the consequences, whether good, bad, or indifferent.

Beyond that, I don't see the value in going down the pro vs anti-vaccination argument or having a political debate.

I'm so glad that we each can have our own opinions and share them here should we choose. We have the freedom to completely disagree (or not) and I would never want any of you censored or demand that you change your minds ?

guest1163268 · Aug 10, 2021

34 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

I'm not defending my country's current government, society values, nor medical system. I was stating the values that we were purported founded on, which were radical freedom and the right to self-determination.

To bring it back to the topic, my opinion on the topic of this thread is that nobody is owed information on somebody else's medical conditions or vaccination status. Could there be consequences for either sharing or not sharing the information? Yes.

We each are free to make a myriad of choices in this life but none of us is immune from the consequences, whether good, bad, or indifferent.

Beyond that, I don't see the value in going down the pro vs anti-vaccination argument or having a political debate.

I'm so glad that we each can have our own opinions and share them here should we choose. We have the freedom to completely disagree (or not) and I would never want any of you censored or demand that you change your minds ?

Understand your point of view except it's ignorant! Harsh word to elicit a revelatory awakening hopefully!

We all judge or categorize constantly.

Two pizza parlors, side by side. One is very clean on both the outside and the inside with equally spotless servers etc. The other is the opposite.

You are more likely to choose the clean one. I am more likely to choose the most visited one. I buy pizza for the flavor!

Freedom is an illusion determined by education, culture and nurture! It's one of the primary functions in this country to get the best education you can afford which is almost, if it's any good, EMPHASIZES critical thinking!

All of what you said is for a civilized society to function well, except, if half the population is dead, you don't have a civilization any more! Certain situations negate civility! Like pandemics or wars or Insurrections!

Didn't the military just got told to get vaccinated or were they asked politely? I don't listen to stupid people who by their communications tell me through content, context, vocabulary etc, tell me when they are stupid. As a matter of fact if I determine that you are stupid, it provides me with a strong inclination to do exactly the opposite of what you might be implying, after careful due diligence of course. Even a broken clock is right twice daily!

guest1163268 · Aug 10, 2021

8 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

The article was a good read. The graphic representations are really stunning, aren't they? My country has proven that a profit focused, fractured system of treating disease and rationing care based upon wealth is not effective or sustainable. We really need to decide that we do want to be a democratic republic and not some kind of an oligarchy with authoritarian rule.

I would still argue that this is a fascist country based on the definition that fascism is when others believe that they are better than the rest.

We look up to the wealthy and famous in this country when they are likely the most dysfunctional people around. You don't become seriously successful and powerful by being nice with the attributes we want our daughters to marry. They reach a point where the law doesn't matter anymore or the consequences! They are single minded people with narrow viewpoints and little time to obtain education or place themselves in the community where they are likely to acquire social virtues.

They are frequently charming, but are usually sociopaths positioning themselves!

guest1163268 · Aug 10, 2021

9 hours ago, K. Everly said:

Rob never stated whether they are pro or anti-vaccination (at least not that I saw), nor whether they have been vaccinated. I have never shared my opinion or vaccination status on allnurses either. I get to choose whether I do share that, and with whom, and that's the beauty of it all.

The point of this thread started out as a question about whether people are justified in harassing people about their decision to vaccinate or not. It does not appear that it was intended to be a pro or anti-vaccination discussion, despite it turning out that way.

I'm not going down the "to vaccinate or not to vaccinate" rabbit hole on allnurses; I'm trying to keep this all purely about whether one has a duty to share the information about their choice and status. I will say I think we should all have medical agency and freedom of choice. As an American, those are the values inherent in the founding of this nation.

Seriously, you really need to read beyond your high school or undergrad history! Stop subscribing to all the tripe those idiots are serving you!

America has never, ever been about freedom of choice. I honestly don't know why people can't extrapolate from the information they read! Even the constitution chose to exclude certain people and sexes! If you begin with that premise, it becomes a simple equation! The pilgrims were bigots forced to flee because of their extreme values who were then kicked out by their own replacements for their radicalism! They even discriminated against the people who prevented them from starving and then sought to enslave them!

If you read anymore history, try to understand the economics, political and religious interests influencing the history contextually, that you are reading.

Subee2, BSN, MSN, CRNA · Aug 10, 2021

12 hours ago, K. Everly said:

I'm not defending my country's current government, society values, nor medical system. I was stating the values that we were purported founded on, which were radical freedom and the right to self-determination.

To bring it back to the topic, my opinion on the topic of this thread is that nobody is owed information on somebody else's medical conditions or vaccination status. Could there be consequences for either sharing or not sharing the information? Yes.

We each are free to make a myriad of choices in this life but none of us is immune from the consequences, whether good, bad, or indifferent.

Beyond that, I don't see the value in going down the pro vs anti-vaccination argument or having a political debate.

I'm so glad that we each can have our own opinions and share them here should we choose. We have the freedom to completely disagree (or not) and I would never want any of you censored or demand that you change your minds ?

What, exactly please, is radical freedom? Is it different from freedom?

Wuzzie · Aug 10, 2021

12 hours ago, K. Everly said:

We each are free to make a myriad of choices in this life but none of us is immune from the consequences, whether good, bad, or indifferent.

The problem starts when someone else's choice has the potential to harm or kill me. That is the fundamental difference. I should not be required to suffer those consequences.

K. Everly, BSN, RN · Aug 10, 2021

20 minutes ago, Wuzzie said:

The problem starts when someone else's choice has the potential to harm or kill me. That is the fundamental difference. I should not be required to suffer those consequences.

Someone else’s choice to share or not share their vaccination status? Because that is purely what I am talking about and what keeps getting hijacked in this conversation for a pro vs. anti vaccination debate.

Wuzzie · Aug 10, 2021

4 minutes ago, K. Everly said:

Someone else’s choice to share or not share their vaccination status? Because that is purely what I am talking about and what keeps getting hijacked in this conversation for a pro vs. anti vaccination debate.

Yes, because if I have to interact with them then I need to know I'm safe. If they aren't vaxed then they will have to wear a mask and I will conduct my business with them in a safer environment. If they are already wearing a mask then I don't need to ask. Unfortunately many of the people who are choosing not to vax also feel that wearing a mask somehow strips them of their rights.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 10, 2021

When we have achieved vaccine mediated herd immunity to this virus THEN we have the luxury of encountering an unmasked individual and not caring if they are vaccinated. It's silly to assume that posture of privilege outside of having the actual privilege of protection.