Is the RN--->BSN push a clever way to get older nurses out of the way

MunoRN, RN · May 6, 2014

Would it be a problem to stop the influx (or rather flood!) of new grad RNs for a couple of years?
Let's say as colleges/universities reorganized their programs to form collaboratives to graduate all BSNs; the new standard entry level for BSN. Would that be so bad? Maybe we would see a return of hospitals offering students small grants as an agreement to work for them 2-3 years when they graduate (this happened to me in the early 90s). I even remember signing bonuses for new graduates; they weren't as high as those for experienced nurses but they were there. In the presence of a true shortage; the government will reenact grants to nursing students they used to have, this and signing bonuses from the hospital would help ameliorate the problem of diversity addressed before.
No talk of taking away anyone's jobs; just grandfather them in. I know of LVNs who work in regional referral NICUs (lower acuity), they were grandfathered in when HR was no longer even hiring ADNs to those positions. Now if they left. . . there was no re-hire, but they had their job as long as they stayed.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that BSN as entry to practice should be the rule for only a couple of years and then we'd go back to ADN/BSN entry to practice.

While the "surplus" of new grad RN gets well hyped the vacancy rates aren't all that low. We might be able to shave a few percent of our nursing student output, but definitely not 50% or more.

subee, MSN, CRNA · May 7, 2014

How does that solve the problem?

Frees clinical sites for BSN's

MunoRN, RN · May 7, 2014

Frees clinical sites for BSN's

Freeing up clinical sites that are hours away from BSN programs doesn't really help much.

subee, MSN, CRNA · May 8, 2014

Well, the clinical sites aren't too far from the ASN's. Why can't the BSN's use the same ones as the ASN's? I'm all for the community colleges being allowed to grant BSN's for nurses. Not sure why more schools aren't doing it. Assuming that there needs to be more PhD's in a BSN program and the faculty would have to be upgraded but I'm not an educator and know nothing except that the wheel for the BSN at c.c. has already been invented.

mee9mee9 · May 9, 2014

ageism in the workforce... are any of the older BSN nurses having a hard time finding a job?

PMFB-RN, RN · May 9, 2014

Frees clinical sites for BSN's

Maybe in some circumstances that would work. In many other cases it would not. My ADN program did a of our clinicals in a 25 bed rural critical access hospital. We did go to a state psych hospital and to a children's hospital for short periods for those clinicals, but the rest were at rural hospital. The nearest university with a nursing program in about a 2.5 hour drive away. This is true for many of the community college programs, at least in my state (Wisconsin). Maybe in Madison, Milwaukee and a couple of the other larger cities it would matter.

Many of the rural critical access hospitals support ADN student clinical because they depend on them as a source of nurses. They can have a hard time recruiting BSN grads from the universities in the cities. Most of the students who do clinicals at these hospitals are local residents and are going to stay local. The hospitals depend on them.

brandy1017, ASN, RN · May 9, 2014

The last time I checked 60% of all RNs were ADNs. Since you have a majority why don't you use that to your advantage? Get all ADNs to join the ANA, elect leaders sympathetic to your position that there is no difference in nursing outcomes based on education levels, and finance the research to prove it. Use your newfound political influence to get Congress to recognize ADN as the entry point for nursing and lobby state boards to provide a different NCLEX for BSNs. Don't think you can get employers to change their mind as long as this over saturation exists but you can make a start. Or you can continue to bemoan changes that you may have some control over if you exert the effort now. I am not being sarcastic when I wish you good luck, it's going to take a ton of effort and work.

I wouldn't waste my time or money supporting the ANA in the first place. The oversupply of nurses has a lot to do with all the media telling everybody about the nursing shortage and the security of a nursing job! Even states are paying laid off workers to get RN training and do you think they are paying for a BSN for these laid off workers, seriously! Look at how many RN's already have a prior degree that either they couldn't get a decent job or wanted to switch to nursing and chose ADN as the faster more economical route. The ADN is already an entry point to nursing and in most instances ADN RN and BSN are paid the same and they both take the same boards. The majority of nurses are ADN and while the push for BSN is affecting some of us, it is by no means limiting the majority of us, some have pointed out they even work in management.

Ruby Vee, BSN · May 10, 2014

ageism in the workforce... are any of the older BSN nurses having a hard time finding a job?

While there is ageism in the workplace, I think most problems older BSN nurses have is that they're maxed out of their pay scale. A relatively new BSN who is an older nurse shouldn't experience those problems at all -- they'd get the same entry level pay as everyone else. Plus they'd be seen as more mature, steadier and more likely to stay more than a year.

MunoRN, RN · May 10, 2014

Well, the clinical sites aren't too far from the ASN's. Why can't the BSN's use the same ones as the ASN's?

Only a small few of the ASN programs are near the BSN programs, the majority are a long drive away.

When I went to school there were 6 traditional BSN programs in the state, 4 of which including mine were within a 10 mile metropolitan area. We had our own decent sized hospital for clinicals, about 500 beds, and the school put through about 300 BSN students per year. My current facility is used by a single ASN program for clinicals and has 30 students/year sharing a 250 bed hospital. If the closest BSN program were to use my facility for clinicals it would involve a 4 hour daily round trip.

Shuttering the few ASN programs in the metropolitan area shared by the BSN programs would open a few clinical spots, but still just enough to ease the clinical spot overcrowding the BSN programs are dealing with, not really allowing them to actually expand.

I'm all for the community colleges being allowed to grant BSN's for nurses. Not sure why more schools aren't doing it. Assuming that there needs to be more PhD's in a BSN program and the faculty would have to be upgraded but I'm not an educator and know nothing except that the wheel for the BSN at c.c. has already been invented.

The general consensus seems to be that ASN programs should adopt the BSN curriculum, a process which is already well underway. There are those that don't feel the curriculum is enough however and the name is equally if not more important than the education. This was proposed to BSN programs and the representatives of BSN programs were surprisingly blunt: They currently make about $15k to $30k turning an ASN into a BSN, and they aren't about to just give that away. Due to regulatory and accreditation issues, ASN programs typically can't award BSN degrees even if they can provide the same education, the degrees must be granted in partnership with a BSN granting program. Not surprisingly, ASN programs are hesitant to more than double the cost of their program by taking away the option for students to get a BSN comparable education, but just not be able to show off the title. When you're talking about a car or two worth of money that's a reasonable concern, along with how that would like change the demographics of nursing students.

lifelearningrn, BSN, RN · May 10, 2014

Everybody wanted to hire the ADN because we had a lot more clinical education, and could function quickly without costly orientations.

My B.S. in nursing degree had just as many clinical hours as ADN programs, as required by the state BON. I don't understand this idea that BSNs don't get as much clinical education. In fact, we had more clinical rotation hours than some ADN programs.

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · May 10, 2014

My B.S. in nursing degree had just as many clinical hours as ADN programs, as required by the state BON. I don't understand this idea that BSNs don't get as much clinical education. In fact, we had more clinical rotation hours than some ADN programs.

THIS.

If anything, ADN and BSN programs are equivalent; also, near in mind that credit hours are added much differently at community colleges.

Unless anyone has had the luxury to complete a Generic BSN program no one can not speak to "clinical hours"; to add, you can have all the clinical hours in the WORLD; that won't erase that one is still a novice; especially if one doesn't have the opportunities to be comfortable with total care of the patient or go beyond one-two patients; the reality is that one is still going to go through the frowning pains of transition to practice as a novice nurse.

Susie2310 · May 10, 2014

Unless anyone has had the luxury to complete a Generic BSN program no one can not speak to "clinical hours"; to add, you can have all the clinical hours in the WORLD; that won't erase that one is still a novice; especially if one doesn't have the opportunities to be comfortable with total care of the patient or go beyond one-two patients; the reality is that one is still going to go through the frowning pains of transition to practice as a novice nurse.

Several generic BSN students in the state university program I bridged into actually told me in their final semesters that they had received hardly any clinical training and didn't feel prepared to be nurses. Their lack of training was evident during our community health practicum.

In my ADN program we were in clinicals two days a week from the second week of classes, including summer school. I did clinicals at four different hospitals, in med-surg oncology and ortho/neuro, step-down ICU, labor and delivery, pediatrics, psychiatric rotation on a locked unit, psych ER, and rehabilitation. My geriatrics rotation was at a long term care facility. We did total care until our final semester, when we transitioned to team leading with a minimum of four patients. I did student work experience on an oncology unit, where I also did my preceptorship. Unlike the generic BSN students who spoke to me, I felt prepared and was prepared to function as an entry level nurse in an acute care setting.