Is it hypocritical to say you're against systemic racism while supporting affirmative action in higher education admissions?

[A Hit With The Ladies, BSN, RN]

So California is going to put affirmative action back on the ballot in November. Black legislators are for repealing the affirmative action ban, Asian lawmakers largely against it.

I definitely do think there's a systemic racism problem in America, and affirmative action is part of the legalized racist institutions to this day.

Take a look at how Asian students have far lower admissions chances, and Black students have far higher, for medical school:

I think if we're going to have a serious effort to dismantle systemic racism we have to tackle affirmative action head-on. It was used to impose de facto quotas against Jews in the 1920s and 1930s, and is being used against Asians today. It needs to be thrown out by the U.S. Supreme Court entirely.

[toomuchbaloney]

Bait...

[herring_RN, ASN, BSN]

Yes it IS clearly bait! There is no link to the chart. It is NOT from California. It is the opposite of UCLA, the University I know best.

First Ward Connerly was a University of California regent and the man behind California Proposition 209, which outlawed race and gender-based preferences in state hiring and state university admissions, AKA affirmative action. He advocated that ONLY grades and test scores should determine admission to the UC. The only time I met him he said he is less than half Black.

When Prop 209 was first implemented grades and MCAT scores were almost the only criteria. A 4 .0 was not high enough. Back then Compton, California was almost all Black, low income, and high crime. Too many good students fesred they would be killed by gang members before graduating. The high school didn't offer all the courses required for admission as a freshman to UCLA. The Compton Community College nursing program had the lowest rate of passing the NCLEX in the entire state. Even students with top grades were not encouraged to succeed. The few nurses and one physician from Compton that I met had attended Catholic school.

Now most UCLA medical students are Asian. The ones I've met are as kind and smart as a physician should be. All of them in addition to earning 100% "A" grades with advance placement and college classes in high school they volunteered during their undergrad years. Most volunteered at our hospital or another campus.

When I was a 30 year old newly licensed LVN the UCLA School of Medicine graduating class consisted of one Black man, one White woman, and 97 White men. We were fortunate to have seven of them as Family Practice residents, one woman and six Jewish men. The five I still know are excellent physicians and one is our primary physician.

Later with affirmative action laws we generally had about half women, and some racial diversity. But we only had 21 residents at a time due to having seven start their three year residency.

Here is a summary of last month's meeting of the Regents and President:

https://regents.universityofcalifornia.edu/regmeet/june20/b1.pdf

PS: I may try to post what the university and school of medicine have done to improve diversity without considering race.

[A Hit With The Ladies, BSN, RN]

Merit alone should be used in university admissions decisions. NOT race. Because considering race is systemic racism by definition.

Here is proof from the AAMC (someone here wanted a link) showing how Asian Americans are discriminated against by having to have higher GPAs and MCAT scores to gain admission:

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-10/2019_FACTS_Table_A-18.pdf

College and university admissions is a zero-sum game. There are only a certain number of slots available, so some will be excluded if others are given preference. This means caps on Asian students who have the grades and academic qualification. It's systematically bigoted against Asian students, showing them that no matter how hard they study their own racial heritage is grounds for excluding them. Racism by defintion.

[guest1142360]

On 7/14/2020 at 11:54 PM, A Hit With The Ladies said:

Merit alone should be used in university admissions decisions. NOT race. Because considering race is systemic racism by definition.

Here is proof from the AAMC (someone here wanted a link) showing how Asian Americans are discriminated against by having to have higher GPAs and MCAT scores to gain admission:

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-10/2019_FACTS_Table_A-18.pdf

College and university admissions is a zero-sum game. There are only a certain number of slots available, so some will be excluded if others are given preference. This means caps on Asian students who have the grades and academic qualification. It's systematically bigoted against Asian students, showing them that no matter how hard they study their own racial heritage is grounds for excluding them. Racism by defintion.

It SHOULD be but it’s not. If we left it up to America to do what they want schools would still be segregated. Unfortunately these institutions need to be babysat to ensure fairness and inclusion. It is what it is.

Also, who REALLY benefits from affirmative action? I would love to see that study.

[Lqj5762]

Yes, I think going to inferior schools, with only a few caring teachers, which pushed you to rise above your background will handicap most minorities. I am surprised that there are still black students that are brave enough to fight through and still go to these institutions of higher learning. I was told at work why did you get a Masters in nursing, you do not need it. You make money. The trap theory’. I am only good for the bedside. There are a lot of ambitious and well deserving black folk out there that just need a little recognition. Cronyism and bias is still holding us back. Yes affirmative action is needed.

[herring_RN, ASN, BSN]

The year after affirmative action one School of Medicine went from one Black and one woman admitted to 50% White women and two Black men.

Seems this opinion was correct about that place.

Misconceptions Around Affirmative Action:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/affirmative-action-still-matters_n_5981d9b6e4b0353fbb33e1bb

[NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN]

In an AN 2006 post:, men were 5-6% profession while today they make up 10-12%. Over the past 15 years nursing programs actively recruited males and minorities to help increase diversity in our ranks. AN assisted in this effort with development of our site.

Affirmative action for male applicants? - Male Nursing ...

Minority Nurse 2014 article

Affirmative Action and College Admissions

https://minoritynurse.com/affirmative-action-and-college-admissions/

[Rolie, MSN]

These two things shouldn’t be compared- systemic racism and affirmative action. Affirmative action in higher education recognizes that traditional criteria considered “merit” for admissions committees- GPA, extracurricular activities, etc - are a product of socioeconomic status and not a reflection of the quality of the applicant. A 4.0 or higher MCAT score is more likely the result of a two parent, middle or high class family, well funded school in a suburb. A lower MCAT score and GPA is more likely the result of not having the resources described above. Going on the traditional “merit” criteria alone boxes out lower socioeconomic people but it doesn’t give schools the best people. There is so much talent, intelligence, life experience, and empathy not measured by the MCAT. And patients deserve to have physicians who look like them and have a similar life experience. We’re not doing society any good to pump out a bunch of doctors who all look and think the same because they all come from rich suburbs. Affirmative action is not systemic racism and to complain about it is to demonstrate a lack of understanding and empathy that is critical for a healthcare career. Be part of the solution not part of the problem. 

[Jack Peace]

We should make more decisions in this country based on merit, rather than last name, race, gender, gender preference, etc.

If you are trying to get into medical school as an asian, and there are 10 available slots, you can have a 3.8 GPA and higher mcat score than a black applicant who has a 3.2 and the black applicant has a higher chance of getting in. Doesn't let the system pick the best candidates of the field. If there are 10 black applicants who have better resumes than all other applicants, I say the candidates I would choose just happen to be all black. The best of the best is what is wanted. For instance, if I need kidney stones removed, I do NOT care if that surgeon is from the U.S., the north pole, is gay, straight, a male or female, was raised in a mansion by two parents, or raised poor without father or mother, what matters is can that surgeon remove the stones and alleviate my symptoms properly? 

[SummerGarden, BSN, MSN, RN]

2 hours ago, Jack Peace said:

We should make more decisions in this country based on merit, rather than last name, race, gender, gender preference, etc.

If you are trying to get into medical school as an asian, and there are 10 available slots, you can have a 3.8 GPA and higher mcat score than a black applicant who has a 3.2 and the black applicant has a higher chance of getting in. Doesn't let the system pick the best candidates of the field. If there are 10 black applicants who have better resumes than all other applicants, I say the candidates I would choose just happen to be all black. The best of the best is what is wanted. For instance, if I need kidney stones removed, I do NOT care if that surgeon is from the U.S., the north pole, is gay, straight, a male or female, was raised in a mansion by two parents, or raised poor without father or mother, what matters is can that surgeon remove the stones and alleviate my symptoms properly? 

The problem people against affirmative action have is that they claim there is a chance for a merit based system based on GPA or SATs when there is NO such thing as merit based on those things.  In fact, the system has never been a merit based system.  Thus, the argument against affirmative action is just another way for the very rich very racist people to pit poor and middle class white (and now Asian) kids against black and brown kids for a perceived grievance.  For example, black applicant has a higher chance of getting in.... you think, "I worked so hard, but some black person undeserving took my spot...".  There is no way to accept EVERY SINGLE body that applies to any institution.  Also, GPA is not a great indicator of success at any institution or after one graduates. 

Some high schools have 10 Valedictorians and others have 20 Salutatorians (it's a joke).  Some school districts provide an equal education at the high school level while others don't (this is a horrid too).  Yes, people are fighting this, but there is still an unequal access to education in this country at all levels.  Which is why there is no such thing as merit based system and there never has been! 

On the other hand, there are plenty of ways to get a great education in this country post secondary.   We are blessed with very good institutions all over our country.  Apply to as many universities or colleges as possible.   If you get in to the ones you want, good! If you don't, move on!  The University or College you graduate from will not determine your success, that is all on you.