Actually, I lost all respect for two colleagues today. One is a brand new grad, about 21 or 22 and gorgeous in one of those fresh, "girl next door" ways. She gets her scrubs tailored so they fit her just so, her hair is long, shiny and falls in loose lustrous waves. She could be a model, so we'll call her Heidi. The other is a married neurosurgery fellow, whose wife is pregnant with his first child. We'll call him Dr. Dick, or just Dick.
Heidi didn't do anything to seriously endanger a patient: she didn't slam in Lasix, for example, or trickle in Adenosine. She didn't miss a run of VT (although, to be fair, the Clin Tech noticed it first and pointed it out to Heidi). She didn't ignore post-op pain or bleeding, and she wasn't the one sitting at the computer at the nurse's station, headphones on and watching a hockey game while ignoring monitor alarms and call bells. Nevertheless, I've completely lost respect for her.
It was a slow night for a Friday night -- half of our surgeons were out of town for a conference and of the remaining four, one just lost his mother and isn't back from the funeral in Asia. There's a new sushi restaurant near the hospital, and they deliver if you can put together a lucrative-enough order. The folks I work with are crazy about sushi and even the Respiratory Therapists and the X-ray techs were ordering $20 worth of sushi.
We were all sitting in the back -- well, not ALL of us. Half of us were sitting in the back, having drawn the long straw and were enjoying our sushi while the other half watched all of the patients. Heidi was sitting next to Dick, something that really didn't register with me at the time, and Dick was regaling us all with a tale about how his wife's incredible morning sickness caused her to toss her cookies in the waste basket of a patient's hospital room while the patient described in great detail the "unusual" nature of his poop. (Only nurses -- and surgeons, RTs and X-ray techs can sit around enjoying a good meal while describing poop and someone's vomiting episodes.)
And then I went back to relieve Steve, my substation partner so he could eat his sushi. While Steve was gone, his patient's attending surgeon stopped by and asked a question I couldn't answer, so I popped into the break room to ask him about it. Both Heidi and Dick were still there, only this time they were sharing a single chair. The sexual tension was palpable, and Steve looked thrilled to be interrupted. He shot out of the room as though he'd been fired from a cannon.
Heidi, it seems, has been sleeping with Dick since her arrival on our unit in July. She knows all about the pregnant wife . . .
Heidi may be a good clinician one day, she may be a compassionate and caring nurse. She may be a hard worker. But I will never again respect a woman who could sleep with a married man, a man whose wife is pregnant with their child and who is a sometimes-colleague on a consulting service. And the fact that they made no attempt to be discreet makes them even more contemptible. I've lived through the drama on a unit when an affair goes bad, witnessed a famously and flagrantly unfaithful surgeon's wife storm into the ICU demanding "which one of you ugly ******* is ******* my husband?" and making a good attempt to castrate the man in question. I've seen the aftermath of the DON being found going at it with the Medical Director of Emergency Medicine and I've lived through more nurses breaking up with doctors on our service than I can even remember. I've been the cheated-upon, and it was more painful than even I can describe. Why would you put someone else through that deliberately?
Keep it out of work, people. And if you cannot do that, at least be discreet.
It's challenging us to think about social constructs at many levels, and why we feel the way we do one way or the other.
For me, it made me think about why women so often carry the brunt of social shaming in situations such as these.
Interestingly, I was watching a PBS special not long ago in which it was mentioned that at and around the turn of the last century, young gentlemen were expected (and encouraged) to be "experienced" before marriage, and that they were to seek out this experience in brothels and in the lower class. It was granted that men had "needs" but they must not satisfy those needs with any lady they thought they might marry. The woman they married was to be pure, and a virgin: The good girl.
And here we are today, with men still satisfying their needs with the "lower class." And here we are today, as sisters, still casting the lion's share of shame on our counterparts who act the harlot. Whether we want to admit it or not, we women look for signs of sluttiness in our counterparts. Even subconsciously. I believe it comes from generations of teaching : "Stone her! Make her to wear a Scarlet A! Cast her out!"
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose
I think we have a long way to go before we can claim equality between the genders. I’ve seen several posts that indicate that there are a different set of rules for men and women in play. Men and women are held to different standards. Men’s and women’s sexuality is viewed differently.
It’s interesting to note that this discussion so far has only been about married men who engage in “extracurricular activities” with women, and of course the offending woman is also young and beautiful. The whole thing’s a cliché. Married women have affairs too, with men and sometimes with other women. Married men sometimes have affairs with men. For some couples, sexual liaisons outside of a relationship are acceptable and for others it’s the ultimate betrayal. This is I believe up to each couple to decide for themselves and not for others to moralize over.
I think that we should all value ourselves and teach our children to do so. However when one suggests to unilaterally teach our daughters to value themselves more highly as a means to decrease extramarital affairs, with no mention of what if anything, we should teach our sons, it gives me pause.
To shift the responsibility of a man’s fidelity from men to women implies so many things. It suggests that men are so weak of will and at the mercy of their sexual urges, that they require a woman’s assistance to manage to stay on the straight and narrow, and that they are predestined to fail without it. Unless all good girls can manage to keep their legs tightly crossed the poor, helpless man will fall victim to women’s irresistible allure. Implying that men don’t have a will of their own and that they can’t possess enough moral fibre to honor a commitment, is in my opinion insulting to men.
Another aspect I object to is that when women who are involved in an affair with a married man, the assumption is that they are being used. It implies that women’s sexuality is very passive. It’s perfectly possible for women to engage in an affair for no other reason than a purely physical one. Not all women view every sexual encounter with a hope of a long-term relationship and everlasting love.
And speaking of home-wreckers, let me pose this question: When one hears or reads or thinks of the word "home-wrecker," is the mental image we have that of a man, or a woman? Think about that for a minute.
I don’t use the term home-wrecker to describe either the other womanor the other man. In my opinion the marriage or relationship imploded the moment the person who actually made the commitment decided not to honor it (if such an understanding was in place).
I do however sadly agree with you. I think that a disproportionate number of people instinctively assign blame to the other person, especially if the other person happens to be a young and beautiful female. We as a society seem to favor casting the female in the role of the villain.
I take a dim view of people who relish spreading gossip about the personal lives of others. I wish people would mind their own business and spend more energy on scrutinizing their own behavior, than that of others.
I personally believe in honesty in relationships (whether it’s an intimate one or a friendship). I accept responsibility for my actions, but not those of others. It’s not my place to moralize over how other people conduct their personal lives.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
It is my observation that female nurses having relationship with physicians, weather or not one or both are singer or married, is on a dramatic decline.
When I first got into health care it seems that the vast majority of doctors were men, and of course there were many fewer men in nursing then than there are now, so more nurses were female.
Now it more than half of the residents who serve in my hospital are women (good!) and nearly every one of the male residents is married or in a relationship with a female resident and NOT looking for nurses to date.
In fact of the most recent 4 or 5 MD/RN relationships I have been aware of it has been male RN with female MD. I work with several male RNs who are married, or are in relationships with female physicians. I have noticed that I see more single female doctors (lots and lots!) and almost no single male doctors or at least almost no strait ones anyway.
I don't think the hospital is the fertile hunting ground for those looking for their Mrs. Doctor title as it used to be.
This is why society is in collapse. Because people actually think it's wrong to say that a married man shouldn't have sex with someone not his wife, and a woman shouldn't have sex with someone else's husband.
******* First you say they were "doing it" in the break room and it was pointed out that they shared a chair. Then you say they were "making out" in the break room and it's pointed out that they were sharing a chair. You want to know why "society is in a collapse" because people are lying through their teeth. That sickens me more than an affair!!
Oh FFS!!! First you say they were "doing it" in the break room and it was pointed out that they shared a chair. Then you say they were "making out" in the break room and it's pointed out that they were sharing a chair. You want to know why "society is in a collapse" because people are lying through their teeth. That sickens me more than an affair!! Stop lying!!!
It's not so much lying as building a straw man.
It's easy to win an argument when you fabricated the other side's position. Easy trap to fall into, especially when you're emotionally invested in the topic.
And affairs (or suspicions of affairs) are emotional topics
Or if you are really concerned about the doctors wife, give her an anonymous note. Actually, I think that is the best thing to do, out of these options. Is it wrong to allow the doctors wife to be kept in the dark about this? Now that you saw and you know, do you feel obligated to act? Or is this something you will just keep to yourself and the other colleagues that saw?
I think I might be inclined to drop the wife an anonymous note telling her what was up. He wouldn't know it was you necessarily. That would be the thing that would make me angry, is that I saw something, that I found morally objectionable, but felt I must keep a secret.
No, no, no. Just no.
If Dr. Dick and nurse Klum are indeed involved in a sexual relationship and Mrs. Dick is unaware and has an expectation that her husband is faithful, then I find it beyond tacky for the doctor and nurse to be indiscreet about the affair (if that’s what they’re doing and having) in a hospital where the wife also works. Finding it tacky is however, simply my personal and private opinion on the matter. Not something I necessarily have to share
with the rest of the world.
But I can’t emphasize strongly enough how bad I think the idea is to drop Mrs. D an anonymous note.
What makes you so sure that Mrs. Dick will appreciate the heads-up? Just because you might want to be informed in a similar situation, doesn’t mean that every other person feels the same way.
What if the two actually aren’t having an affair beyond temporarily occupying the same chair in the break room, and the rest is just malicious gossip? What if they were having an affair but Dr. Dick has ended it and now recognizes the error of his ways and has vowed never to repeat it? What if Mrs. Dick is already aware and accepts it? These aren’t necessarily likely scenarios, but they are within the realms of possibility.
Nothing good will likely come out of meddling in this thing and while I believe that anonymous tips may serve a purpose in some instances, here I think it would be underhanded and sneaky. If someone assigns themselves the role of harbinger of hurtful news, they should in my opinion have the fortitude to carry out the deed in person.
I never said they were having sex in the break room. Someone said what they do in private is their business, and I responded that they were doing it in the breakroom. I added emphasis to the words doing it, which led to misinterpretation. I should have emphasized the word breakroom, apparently.
Anyway, carry on with approving of married men sharing chairs with women who aren't their wives, with obvious sexual tension, in public.
I never said they were having sex in the break room. Someone said what they do in private is their business, and I responded that they were doing it in the breakroom. I added emphasis to the words doing it, which led to misinterpretation. I should have emphasized the word breakroom, apparently.
Anyway, carry on with approving of married men sharing chairs with women who aren't their wives, with obvious sexual tension, in public.
And your other lie about how they were making out? And it's funny that you never bothered to correct yourself till now about the who "doing it" thing. And who cares if they were sharing a chair? You have your scarlet letter all ready for her? And what may look like "obvious sexual tension" to one person, may look like ten different things to ten other people.
Oh and I never said I approved, I just said Heidi didn't break any vows and the bulk of the blame lays on the doc.
We have all worked with people who were physically attracted to each other. When it ends it usually ends badly with someone getting hurt.
Then there is the awkwardness of having to work together and see each other every day.
I had to leave a job when a coworker I dated, and neither of us were married, took it badly when I tried to end it, and behaved in a hostile and spiteful manner.
I had to learn the hard way that physical attraction and romantic relationships are just bad for business.
If I worked with Heidi and Dick, I would definitely mind my own business. Some of us just have to learn the hard way what love is and what it is not.
We have all worked with people who were physically attracted to each other. When it ends it usually ends badly with someone getting hurt.
Then there is the awkwardness of having to work together and see each other every day.
I had to leave a job when a coworker I dated, and neither of us were married, took it badly when I tried to end it, and behaved in a hostile and spiteful manner.
I had to learn the hard way that physical attraction and romantic relationships are just bad for business.
If I worked with Heidi and Dick, I would definitely mind my own business. Some of us just have to learn the hard way what love is and what it is not.
Yep, a lot of people have to learn the hard way, and no matter what you say they'll do what they want.
There are a million reasons why work can be uncomfortable and coworkers banging is just one of them. Any time co works become more than just coworkers, whether it's as friends or romantically, it opens the door for an uncomfortable work place. If you're not one of the parties directly involved, I say keep your head down, mouth shut and focus on the job.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
The bottom line, I think, is that whether or not you think it OK for Heidi and Dick to be having an affair while his pregnant wife vomits in patient wastebaskets, I don't think anyone thinks it's OK for them to bring it into the workplace. Yes, we should all mind our own business, gossiping is bad and what someone does behind closed doors should stay behind closed doors. But behaving in such a way in the workplace that your co-workers notice and are uncomfortable (Steve bolted out of the breakroom as if he had been shot from a cannon and those who were still eating looked as though they'd gladly follow him, food and all) is not cool. Public displays of affection in the break room, in the nurse's station and in the doorway of a (fortunately unconscious) patient's room are in poor form even if both parties are single.
The message I'm trying for is "Keep your affairs out of the workplace, and if you can't do that, at least don't be blatant about it. Try to keep secrets SECRET."
And to those who are gunning for the roommate -- the roommate didn't say anything to anyone until the affair left the apartment and was put on display in the workplace. Maybe s/he should have kept quiet even then, but I'll admit that it would have required more willpower than I personally possess to have done so. Gossiping, while evil, is also fun.
I think my feelings for Dick are clear by the name I assigned him. But this is a nursing forum, and my message is for nurses. It may damage your professional reputation to be caught having an affair with a married colleague. Whether the colleague is a physician, surgeon, fellow nurse, respiratory therapist, X-ray tech, pharmacist or administrator, bringing your affairs into work is a thoroughly bad idea. And if the spouse of your lover works for the same hospital, it's potentially a disaster for all concerned.
Would it change anyone's opinions if I told you that Dick was really a pharmacist working on our unit and the step-down and his wife is really the unit secretary on the stepdown? If Mrs. Dick was the surgeon and Dr. Dick was a consulting podiatrist? If Heidi was our assistant nurse manager and the Dicks were a decade younger?
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
But did you lie about the sushi? That is the important question here! Please don't tell me it was really Chipotle, but you changed that detail to maintain anonymity.
macawake, MSN
2,141 Posts
Guttercat, I really like your post.
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose
I think we have a long way to go before we can claim equality between the genders. I’ve seen several posts that indicate that there are a different set of rules for men and women in play. Men and women are held to different standards. Men’s and women’s sexuality is viewed differently.
It’s interesting to note that this discussion so far has only been about married men who engage in “extracurricular activities” with women, and of course the offending woman is also young and beautiful. The whole thing’s a cliché. Married women have affairs too, with men and sometimes with other women. Married men sometimes have affairs with men. For some couples, sexual liaisons outside of a relationship are acceptable and for others it’s the ultimate betrayal. This is I believe up to each couple to decide for themselves and not for others to moralize over.
I think that we should all value ourselves and teach our children to do so. However when one suggests to unilaterally teach our daughters to value themselves more highly as a means to decrease extramarital affairs, with no mention of what if anything, we should teach our sons, it gives me pause.
To shift the responsibility of a man’s fidelity from men to women implies so many things. It suggests that men are so weak of will and at the mercy of their sexual urges, that they require a woman’s assistance to manage to stay on the straight and narrow, and that they are predestined to fail without it. Unless all good girls can manage to keep their legs tightly crossed the poor, helpless man will fall victim to women’s irresistible allure. Implying that men don’t have a will of their own and that they can’t possess enough moral fibre to honor a commitment, is in my opinion insulting to men.
Another aspect I object to is that when women who are involved in an affair with a married man, the assumption is that they are being used. It implies that women’s sexuality is very passive. It’s perfectly possible for women to engage in an affair for no other reason than a purely physical one. Not all women view every sexual encounter with a hope of a long-term relationship and everlasting love.
I don’t use the term home-wrecker to describe either the other woman or the other man. In my opinion the marriage or relationship imploded the moment the person who actually made the commitment decided not to honor it (if such an understanding was in place).
I do however sadly agree with you. I think that a disproportionate number of people instinctively assign blame to the other person, especially if the other person happens to be a young and beautiful female. We as a society seem to favor casting the female in the role of the villain.
I take a dim view of people who relish spreading gossip about the personal lives of others. I wish people would mind their own business and spend more energy on scrutinizing their own behavior, than that of others.
I personally believe in honesty in relationships (whether it’s an intimate one or a friendship). I accept responsibility for my actions, but not those of others. It’s not my place to moralize over how other people conduct their personal lives.