wouldn't it be easier

Palliative Care, DNP · Aug 4, 2013

My facility will only hire new employees with a BSN. They have given all current employees a deadline to have the BSN completed. LPNs working at the hospital were told they have positions unless they leave as they will not be hiring LPNs any longer. Other area hospitals have begun the same process. They are offering an RN to BSN program for a discount through a local University.

thenursemandy · Aug 4, 2013

I'm a new graduate ASN RN that has begun an RN to BSN program but have not been able to land an interview. Granted I only passed the boards a few weeks ago, but I am extremely motivated and have gone to every hospital an hour from my residence. I have been turned away repeatedly due to not being completed in my BSN program. I chose the associate route because I was rejected from my local state BSN program, where I now attend RN to BSN, (even though I was a competitive applicant) and was unable to foot the bill of a private university. I'm confused why bachelors is so much better when starting in nursing. I understand the need for higher education, just not getting in to massive amounts of debt to achieve this instantly.[/quote']
There lies the problem. New grads don't often get hired at hospitals anymore. Maybe if you apply to new grad residency programs, but those are competetive. The one in my town accepted only 6% of applicants. 6%!!!

jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B · Aug 5, 2013

And I only know of one person who will be even close to six figure debt, but 50k of that is from a previous degree!

But then lets add kids to the mix. If one is 50K in debt themselves for college, then one or more of your children go to college, even if they get a student loan--a parent 99.9% of the time has to be either a co-signer, or the parent takes out the loan for the kid. (the government has a really, really nifty program for that).

The child CAN choose to take on the loan themselves at the end of it all, however, there is nothing obligating them to do so. Therefore, if your child gets their education, and off they go, then there's more debt for you if in fact, the child then can not find a job therefore, their loans will be a parent's responsibility.

I am not suggesting education is a bad thing. However, to be drowning in debt for the 25 cents more an hour that a BSN staff nurse makes over an ADN staff nurse, (at least in my facility) you have to look at the pros and cons and if you can afford this. People get into a panic over being fired for not obtaining a BSN. But few people who have other obligations can afford this. Add to the mix a spouse who also has student loans, and we all get into a "pay the mortgage or pay the loan" which, with the job market not ideal, can be quite an obligation that for some is overwhelming.

Many years ago, hospitals were willing to send nurses to college for advanced degrees--the mindset was more about keeping loyal employees loyal, not that anyone can be replaced. There were many more hospital diploma programs, which, even today, takes the same exact boards as a BSN does. Student loans were given out to just about anyone, parents were not responsible for the loans of the kids.

I am near 50. Should I go back to obtain a BSN, at 54 years old I will be in loan debt that I may not live long enough to pay off, or that my social security (if there is such a thing then) would have to go to payments. My 2 kids who may or may not have jobs then may not be able to pay on their loans--which are very small, but never the less, present, oh, and then the third child--depending on what happens with her, and the employer's "tuition reimbursement" program for the $1000 went to books long ago. Even if the tuition reimbusement is for your entire education, it is reimbusement NOT they pay for it and you go.....and most have some interesting "well, we pay this and not this" parts of reimbusing.

When I was a young person, my parents couldn't afford to send me to school. I was not an ideal student, therefore, I couldn't do what I wanted as far as education. That was the way it was, and that was that. Now one is considered "awful" if they can't send a child to a college of their choosing. In any event I chose to go an LPN route, spent $20,000.00 plus expenses, and live with a car that gets me from point a to point b and that's that. My choice. I love being an LPN, but that is me.

Yes, I can see resentment that somehow one is a less valuable employee due to being an LPN. Much like ADN's and BSN's we all have strengths that we bring to the table. We all have our places in health care where we can shine and are useful to patient care and satisfaction.

BSN's should be the policy makers, the movers, the shakers--and I would love the idea that because BSN's are in a position to do that, significant out of the box thinking could be employed to make a place for all levels of nursing. No matter what life choice one makes. As nurses we all have a goal for good patient care, assisting those less fortunate (in life or in health) than ourselves. But we start discussing degrees or certifications or lack thereof, and all heck breaks loose.

klone, MSN, RN · Aug 5, 2013

There's no need to "drown" in debt for a BSN. There are many inexpensive RN-BSN options out there that would cost less than $10K for the entire program.

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Aug 5, 2013

There's no need to "drown" in debt for a BSN. There are many inexpensive RN-BSN options out there that would cost less than $10K for the entire program.

^THIS.

I think that there is a myth that one will "drown" in debt for the BSN...knowledge is power, and we do have the power and the choice to choose a program that fits budgetary needs and educational needs...there IS never "enough" education in our field.

As a former LPN, I wanted to be certified in the specialties that I worked in; however, I needed to be an RN for the specialties that I worked in (Rehabilitation and Pediatrics). I looked at my area, saw that the 4 year programs had 1-2 more classes (Leadership and Research separated) than the CC, PLUS an option to go part time and gave credit towards LPNs...CC did have that option, but not part time. I found the BSN programs had MORE access than the CC, thereby decreasing my debt (thinking about giving up two years of working full time versus working a flexible schedule and going to school while paying a decreased tuition for going part time instead of full time).

I know that with my BSN I will think out of the box and help shape policies, however I want my fellow NURSES to collaborate as fully as I would, REGARDLESS of their position...that is what will help shape and continue our profession. We must be able to meet the ever expanding scopes on every level, even if it means increasing education in some areas to make changes happen more effectively.

hope3456, ASN, RN · Aug 5, 2013

There seem to be alot of online RN - BSN programs out there and it appears they advertise heavily on Facebook, here allnurses, ect.

How does one choose a legit and high quality program? Does it matter to employers which program you use? Which ones have good reputations and are there ones that are poor quality? I've noticed many claim"no clinicals" but isn't it better that one would do clinicals? Are these programs at all regulated?

Just trying to make an educated decision about selecting a program. What is the general level of difficulty? How much time does one need to devote to the studies?

Palliative Care, DNP · Aug 5, 2013

Hope3456 I recommend using an online RN to BSN program through a brick & mortar school. I used Old Dominion University's program. Never went on campus until graduation. I didn't want to use a for profit program that might be looked down on.

Not_A_Hat_Person, RN · Aug 5, 2013

Not everyone who gets a BSN is drowning in student loan debt. I saved money in preparation for nursing school. I worked while going to nursing school. I attended a public university vs. an expensive private. I graduated with zero debt.

I already had a BA when I started researching local nursing programs. With no help from my employer or the government (except loans), my options were $7,000 for an Associates, $15,000 for a BSN, or $25,000 for a direct-entry Masters program. I went for the community college ADN, worked full-time year-round, and finished with $15,000 in student loan debt.

When I looked into RN-BSN programs, I was shocked to find that my state U charges $600 per credit in-state. It was far cheaper to attend a private school, or even another state U as an out-of-state student.

nurseprnRN, BSN, RN · Aug 5, 2013

In my state and many others, clinical hours are state mandated and there's no clear difference in what ADN and BSN programs chose to add beyond that.
Either way, you're attributing too much to the number of hours despite the differences in many ADN and BSN clinical experiences that occur despite the same number of hours. My hospital had a 2 1/2 year hiring freeze on BSN's because of the difference in clinical experience, and I know we're not the only hospital to notice that difference. Clinical opportunities in BSN programs tend to be more constrained than ADN programs, as a result ADN students often finish their clinical hours further along in their clinical skills progression, mainly because the opportunity to take patient loads and advance their workload is greater in the clinical rotations of ADN programs. That's not necessarily a huge deal since there's some evidence that while BSN students may require a longer clinical residency after graduation, they quickly catch up and may end up exceeding the abilities of other graduates.

Data, data, please. Clinical hours are "more constrained" in BSN programs? What does that mean?

I give you an example of a BSN program with more clinical hours than any ADN program I know, and then you say clinical hours don't matter, and then you say ADNs get more out of their clinical hours than BSN students, and then that BSNs need longer residencies and catch up quickly and may exceed other graduates' capabilities.

That's a lot of contradictory assertions all in one paragraph. And no real data.

MunoRN, RN · Aug 6, 2013

Data, data, please. Clinical hours are "more constrained" in BSN programs? What does that mean?

I give you an example of a BSN program with more clinical hours than any ADN program I know, and then you say clinical hours don't matter, and then you say ADNs get more out of their clinical hours than BSN students, and then that BSNs need longer residencies and catch up quickly and may exceed other graduates' capabilities.

That's a lot of contradictory assertions all in one paragraph. And no real data.

There is currently a moratorium on expanding BSN programs in my state due to limited clinical availability, ADN programs can still apply for expansion.

While clinicals occur at more than just hospitals, students to hospital bed ratios is probably a decent way of gauging the availability and flexibility of clinical options. The local ADN program has a total of 56 students to a hospital clinical site of 250 beds. One of our state BSN programs has 100 BSN students per 300 beds, another is one of 4 BSN programs in the same city with about 450 BSN students combined who share about 1400 beds. Because of this, not all clinical hours are the same. With more availability, it's easier to give students more direct care experience and to start it sooner, as well as to be more flexible in integrating classroom and clinical experience. Due to the constraints of clinical spots for BSN students, direct 'full immersion' experience is delayed and students are more likely to be limited to observation or paired or even tripled up with other students.

I think you misunderstood my other point. While it's more likely ADN students will graduate having already spent a significant amount of time taking a full load independently, BSN students may be able to exceed to ADN students down the road, so the initial investment by hospitals in longer orientations may be worth it.

dansamy · Aug 7, 2013

There's no need to "drown" in debt for a BSN. There are many inexpensive RN-BSN options out there that would cost less than $10K for the entire program.

I have an ADN & am (finally) looking to obtain a BSN, partially due to employer pressure. What programs are there that are most affordable?

SleeepyRN · Aug 7, 2013

I'm well aware of the research, but I believe that over time you may see quality of care decline as nursing education becomes less and less accessible to the population, just as a college education in general is becoming.
I have a four year degree - not in nursing - I fail to see how taking some extra courses in "leadership" and community health without extra clinical time or skills training is going to improve my practice. In fact, I consider myself - on the whole in a general sense - more educated than an RN with just a BSN and no other education.

I agree with you completely about the extra classes. One thing I just can't wrap my mind around is why people say it takes 4 years for a BSN and 2 years for an ADN. The prerequisites for ADN takes roughly 2 years, then the program is 2 years. As far as I'm aware, 2+2 still equals 4 ; ) However, after posting my opinion on this topic in many forums, I've come to realize it will not change anyone's opinion on the matter. The people who think those extra leadership classes and research projects churn out more skilled, more critical thinking nurses will not just change their minds by reading my opinion. Many have said it comes off as though we (other posters like me) have a self esteem issue. NOT the case. I'm proud of my ADN and don't think less of myself when a BSN nurse looks down on me. I know it is THEIR ignorance, not mine.

That being said I have to say that we with ADNs need to be mindful that just because we've had a few experiences with BSNs looking down on us, doesn't mean they all do. Many LPNs feel the same way about RNs. I in no way look down on them. But many LPNs think all or most RNs think they are better than the LPNs. This is a real problem in many LTC facilities and creates hostility. WE NEED TO WORK AS A TEAM. CNAs, LPNs and RNs (BSN and ADN.)

Yes, this is a long post, LOL. I am passionate about the topic. Many want the topic to just go away. Yes, it has been discussed to death. However, thousands of new nurses graduate each year, and they have the right to add their opinions to the matter. I welcome everyone's opinion, love debate, and I learn a thing or two with each debate in which I partake. Let us all keep in mind to debate respectfully :)