wouldn't it be easier

Nurses General Nursing

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Wouldn't it be eaiser for nurses if there were not different degrees in the nursing feild. With all this LPN not able to find hospital jobs, and employers wanting BSNs, and RN thinking that working in nursing homes is beneith them. Anyways everyone basically seems to get their BSNs to be competitive anyways. LPNs are told to get their RN and RN getting their BSNs I feel wouldn't it make sence to just have all nurses get the same education and be on the same playing feild. If everyone just had to get the education of a BSN to be a nurse it would make things so much easier.

1. I think BSNs are very important beyond just increased patient safety. They make the field of nursing look more professional. Requiring a 4 year college degree to practice as an RN makes it look like a more legitimate "career" versus a "job" that requires only one to two years of education. That makes our voice stronger - it's a lot easier for other healthcare providers to brush off the recommendations of the nurse when they can tell themselves they only have a tech degree. I hope BSNs become the requirement soon for licensure.

2. I agree that a 4 year degree does not increase clinical skills. No extra nursing skills courses are taught during a 4 yr vs 2 yr program. The difference, however, is that it increases general knowledge and education level. A BSN degree may require extra English, math, and theory courses that have nothing to do with nursing, but those courses increase the nurses overall ability to communicate at a higher level, which is important for patient advocacy.

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1. I think BSNs are very important beyond just increased patient safety. They make the field of nursing look more professional. Requiring a 4 year college degree to practice as an RN makes it look like a more legitimate "career" versus a "job" that requires only one to two years of education. That makes our voice stronger - it's a lot easier for other healthcare providers to brush off the recommendations of the nurse when they can tell themselves they only have a tech degree. I hope BSNs become the requirement soon for licensure.

2. I agree that a 4 year degree does not increase clinical skills. No extra nursing skills courses are taught during a 4 yr vs 2 yr program. The difference, however, is that it increases general knowledge and education level. A BSN degree may require extra English, math, and theory courses that have nothing to do with nursing, but those courses increase the nurses overall ability to communicate at a higher level, which is important for patient advocacy.

Just wanted to make it clear that an associates degree is not a "tech degree".

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
Sorry but we now have very clear evidence - from very large scale acute care patient outcome studies - that higher percentages of BSN RNs make a significant positive difference in patient care. That is the reason that the IOM made their "recommendation" for 80% BSN RN staff in October, 2010. It's a quality & patient safety issue. Here's a document that provides information. http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2010/The-Future-of-Nursing/Nursing%20Education%202010%20Brief.pdf I don't believe that these studies have been replicated in non-acute settings, so the recommendation is limited to acute care at this time.

Patient care involves a huge variety of activities. In order to be high quality without sacrificing cost effectiveness, we need to make sure that the 'right' people are doing the 'right' things. It just doesn't make sense to pay more than necessary for any service - which is one of the consequences of just 'raising the bar' on entry into practice. It would be like requiring all employees in a retail store to have an MBA. There is a place for all of us - we can all contribute.

But I do agree - I am also tired of the everlasting conflict over degrees . . . and the disrespect that sometimes crops up in those discussions.

Let's stop this nonsense!! Who's with me?

^I am! ;)

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.

2) I sit on a hiring panel and I can tell you right now, experience doesn't matter nearly as much as the degree does, because it's ALL. ABOUT. MONEY!!!!! Get it through your heads. Insurers reimburse providers MORE for BSN educated nursing staff!!!!!! Do I agree with this? Sometimes. Do I think some CNAs and LPNs make better nurses than BSNs? Sometimes. Am I positive that this requirement will become the standard, no matter how much you LPNs & ADNs cry about it? YES!!!!!

I am very pleased you brought this enlightening information up...

It is a MYTH that nurses are so-called "money drainers"...we are "money makers." They do reimburse more and the model is trending towards this...and it has been occurring WAY before the ACA. The "outcomes model" that CMS has is a very comprehensive model on utilizing nurses to determine care...and are using the research, the trends in hospitals that have more BSNs on staff, and a lot of hospitals have decided to follow. :yes:

I'm sure as much as PP will continue to post that it does not happen...however, there is too much writing on the wall for this trend in the work I've done as a CMS contractor... :whistling:

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.

In terms of "gettin'ner done" I think this profession should control the schools that have proliferate with inferior requirements and have the kahunas to regulate what is being taught and by whom.

This profession should move forward towards this. It doesn't do our profession justice in creating the same cyclical hiring issues, and the risk of clinicians and practitioners not being prepared and/or be effective in transitioning from novice to expert.

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
1. I think BSNs are very important beyond just increased patient safety. They make the field of nursing look more professional. Requiring a 4 year college degree to practice as an RN makes it look like a more legitimate "career" versus a "job" that requires only one to two years of education. That makes our voice stronger - it's a lot easier for other healthcare providers to brush off the recommendations of the nurse when they can tell themselves they only have a tech degree. I hope BSNs become the requirement soon for licensure.

I have to disagree with the "career versus a job" statement. The fact that one advances beyond the required basic education courses and wants to enter a profession by acquiring more education IS a professional, regardless of it being a technical diploma, Associates, Bachelors or a Masters...We even have to pass licensure to even perform as a clinician; nursing will ALWAYS be a a career in my eyes to the millions of nurses including myself...the ones who feel as though nursing is "a job" will treat the profession as such, especially when it is MUCH more than that.

2. I agree that a 4 year degree does not increase clinical skills. No extra nursing skills courses are taught during a 4 yr vs 2 yr program. The difference, however, is that it increases general knowledge and education level. A BSN degree may require extra English, math, and theory courses that have nothing to do with nursing, but those courses increase the nurses overall ability to communicate at a higher level, which is important for patient advocacy.

Well, the reason I choose a BSN over a ASN was because most of the curriculums and the time spent was THE SAME...I just didn't see the point investing time in getting a 2-year degree for the 4 years...I wanted a 4-year degree for the 4 years I spent in college, even though I went with most of my pre-reqs, and the nursing part took 2 years part-time. There were more levels of humanities, I had to take 2 religions, 2 philosophies; they overall helped with critical thinking. I made a conscious decision on choosing a program based on what it entailed, not JUST "the requirements" to enter, but for what coursework I had to take.

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I also have the experience to disagree with the knee-jerk opinion that BSN programs have the same (or less!) clinical time (or "nursing skills courses," whatever that means) than ADN programs. In mine, we had 14-21 clinical hours a week (two or three 7-hour days) for three of our four years in college. I did 1 full semester in SNF/acute rehab, then 2 full semesters medical and surgical (with options to do critical care or other advanced area in our last semester), and one full semester each in OB, psych, and peds. We also took a full academic load-- three semesters of college chemistry (2 regular, one organic, all with labs), anatomy, microbiology (with lab), physiology (with lab), sociology, anthropology, psychology, economics or government, English, and (hah!) an elective or two. (forgot: freshman year, mandatory gym weekly and a weekly class with the dean. Which I skipped.) This in addition to all the nursing lectures, sections, and skills labs. Every single one of those contributed more than mere data-- they made us think critically, prioritize, and learn about evidence-based reasoning and practice in many different contexts.

Set that kind of program up against the curricula I see for ADN and many RN-to-BSN programs, especially those online ones, and I think you can see the difference a better education makes in the quality of the output.

"Education is a companion which no misfortune can depress, no crime can destroy, no enemy can alienate, no despotism can enslave. At home, a friend; abroad, an introduction; in solitude, a solace; and in society, an ornament. It chastens vice, it guides virtue, it gives at once grace and government to genius. Without it, what is (wo)man? A splendid slave, a reasoning savage."

-- Joseph Addison

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Specializes in Med-Surg, NICU.

I would be perfectly fine with making BSNs the point of entry IF wages would increase to reflect that higher standards AND they didn't insist NPs have doctorates instead of Master's Degrees.

I think the only nurses who complain about making BSNs the minimum are those who don't have the degree in the first place. Nurses want to see their field to be seen as professional, but don't want to make the necessary changes in order to do so...why is that? In other fields, you see that they are very homogenized and the standards are very uniformed. Nursing is the only field I can think of that doesn't have standardized requirements.

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Specializes in Medical Surgical.

The clinical hour requirements for a BSN and a ADN are the same. I had to do three 12 hour clinical days a week in nursing school. So you cant really argue that your getting more clinical time. The clinical hours are set by the California BRN, and the minimum is 240. So you have four years to complete your 240, while I had two. The BSN and the ADNs all meet the same BRN requirements for content.

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The clinical hour requirements for a BSN and a ADN are the same. I had to do three 12 hour clinical days a week in nursing school. So you cant really argue that your getting more clinical time. The clinical hours are set by the California BRN, and the minimum is 240. So you have four years to complete your 240, while I had two. The BSN and the ADNs all meet the same BRN requirements for content.

The MINIMUMS are the same. As noted, some schools exceed that. Mine exceeded it by quite a bit.

Critical thinking?

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Specializes in Critical Care.
The MINIMUMS are the same. As noted, some schools exceed that. Mine exceeded it by quite a bit.

Critical thinking?

The fact that the minimums are the same is a supportable claim, critical thinking would demand that some evidence be presented to say that overall, BSN programs have more clinical hours, without that, the only thing we can say with certainty is that the minimums are the same.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
I also have the experience to disagree with the knee-jerk opinion that BSN programs have the same (or less!) clinical time (or "nursing skills courses," whatever that means) than ADN programs. In mine, we had 14-21 clinical hours a week (two or three 7-hour days) for three of our four years in college...

In my state and many others, clinical hours are state mandated and there's no clear difference in what ADN and BSN programs chose to add beyond that.

Either way, you're attributing too much to the number of hours despite the differences in many ADN and BSN clinical experiences that occur despite the same number of hours. My hospital had a 2 1/2 year hiring freeze on BSN's because of the difference in clinical experience, and I know we're not the only hospital to notice that difference. Clinical opportunities in BSN programs tend to be more constrained than ADN programs, as a result ADN students often finish their clinical hours further along in their clinical skills progression, mainly because the opportunity to take patient loads and advance their workload is greater in the clinical rotations of ADN programs. That's not necessarily a huge deal since there's some evidence that while BSN students may require a longer clinical residency after graduation, they quickly catch up and may end up exceeding the abilities of other graduates.

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