Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

bugsbee · Apr 1, 2005

Mr Huffman

Where is your evidence so far I have only heard of lip service from you. Did you by chance see the cat scan done quite interesting I thought. And why are you protecting the Schindlers at any cost? Why not let Terri rest in peace and let the medical examiners and other law enforcement do their jobs. We will know soon what the truth is.

fab4fan · Apr 1, 2005

Yikes, I'm about crying over here.
Listening to Terri's priest recount her last hours on Larry King.
He said that it was not a peaceful death. She was panting heavily, sweating, her face was flushed and he said "she looked terrified. I stared at her face for an hour."
Poor baby. :crying2:

That "panting" or gasping was more than likely agonal breathing, which is normal during the dying process and has nothing to do with being deprived of oxygen. It's something that can happen as the nervous system is shutting down. Same thing with the flushing...it's a product of the body's shutting down. I saw this many times over the years when I worked in hospice.

If the priest was so alarmed at what he saw, why didn't he say something to the staff? They could have reassessed her and medicated her if necessary, or explained to him what was happening.

Really easy for the priest to second guess; unfortunately, his comments show how uninformed he is about the active dying process.

Peachy720 · Apr 1, 2005

Thanks, fab4!! I really appreciate you explaining the "panting" for me; that's what was wearing on my mind.

I guess it's like webblark said and "death is probably harder on the loved ones than the patient."

webblarsk · Apr 1, 2005

That "panting" or gasping was more than likely agonal breathing, which is normal during the dying process and has nothing to do with being deprived of oxygen. It's something that can happen as the nervous system is shutting down. Same thing with the flushing...it's a product of the body's shutting down. I saw this many times over the years when I worked in hospice.
If the priest was so alarmed at what he saw, why didn't he say something to the staff? They could have reassessed her and medicated her if necessary, or explained to him what was happening.
Really easy for the priest to second guess; unfortunately, his comments show how uninformed he is about the active dying process.

Very nicely explained!

Rozaloca · Apr 1, 2005

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All together now...Say... POWER TRIP I think its safe to say we don't need much "proof" that he has another woman and two kids. Adultery is considered abandonment. How would Terri feel about that??

Rozaloca · Apr 1, 2005

I have never believed it was "all about the money" when it came to the husband, but I do believe it is all about hurting her.
He has refused to allow her wheelchair to be repaired and has refused offers of a free new wheelchair.
He refuses to let light into the room and has demanded the blinds be kept shut.
He refused to allow anyone to take her out in the sunshine.
Why refuse to allow a Priest to visit??
He wants to have her cremated even though her religion is against it.

I agree!!! I also wonder how that hospice has gotten away with letting him bully them into abusing her. Some patient care such as mouth care, stimulation, etc. are basic standards of care. Also, just to let you know, I am Catholic, and it isn't against our religion to cremate, but her parents want a Mass of Christian burial and he won't allow it. Great comments!!

Benedikta · Apr 1, 2005

Contrary to popular belief, if the feeding tube was removed she would not starve to death but die of dehydration. Dehydration is a peaceful and painless death.I did a hugh research paper on this subject and people are misinformed.

Dehydration is a painless death? I don't know what science says about this and I've never done a hugh research paper on this subject but I did suffer serious dehydration once and let me tell you, it was anything but peaceful and painless. I don't think my stomach has ever been so upset nor have I ever vomited so violently in my life. My entire body felt as if I had been run over by a truck and every bone left broken. My head hurt so badly I felt it had been split open. May God grant her rest.

Long Term Care Columnist / Guide · Apr 1, 2005

He doesn't have to 'allow' her parents to have a Mass of Christian Burial.....they can do this in their home parish church if they want to, and he can't do a thing about it. I'm sure their priest knows the circumstances and would not deny Terri her right to a Catholic service, with or without her actual body present. Michael Schiavo doesn't have to be a part of it, and he certainly can't forbid it.

If for no other reason, I'm glad Terri has quit this old earth because she is now free of his control and in the arms of the One who loves her utterly and unselfishly.

widow2RN · Apr 1, 2005

I'm not sure it was fear he was seeing. I think at that point, she wasn't really feeling any emotions, her brain was way too hypoxic to function at that capacity, and her body was physically responding.
This priest is deliberately playing with your heartstrings because his church objected to the method of death.

Hi Tweety,

I don't know that I would agree with that. In 1999, I was in ICU for 4 weeks with pneumonia that got into my bloodstream... I can't say that I ever could tell you when my parents were at my side all the time, or when my friends came in to the room to see me or pray for me. Not now I couldn't anyways... but, the doctors were telling my parents every day and night for the first 7 days in ICU that they didn't think I would live through the night. I went through respiratory failure, and my kidneys and heart they said were shutting down. To me... I think I knew when it happened, but it was like I was locked inside of myself in my own dream of somewhere else... couldn't hear the others or doctors around me... couldn't see them... couldn't communicate with anyone (on the outside)... but, I was sure screaming to them on the inside to help me... (THAT... I do remember). The unconsciousness is a powerful thing. Though I do not remember any of that from the "room's" perspective... heard later that my sister-in-law sat with me and sang to me and saw the tears run down my face as she sang... (though I don't remember it now). I had friends come to me after ICU and tell me that I looked like death... like I was dead... when they were in there with me. All I know was that time itself could go by without my ever realizing how much of it had gone by... yet I was crying out to them all along, though trapped in my own reality. I only remember one moment in ICU of becoming conscious enough that my mom and dad were there and my dad asked me if I knew what day it was... I barely could open my eyes and there on the wall was a day-to-day calendar... Sept 17th... (I had entered ICU on Aug 30... which seemed like yesterday to me at the time)... and I told Dad, "Yeah... today's your birthday." That was it... back unconscious... still have very vague memories of nurses coming to my bedside to care for me and wash and fix my hair. So... who's to say that even Terri... though she couldn't verbalize herself, nor control her physical motor skills... still didn't have her own very vital thoughts and emotions and zest for life... same as I did. I remember knowing in my gut at one point that I might die (my parent's told me later that the doctor would tell that to them standing in the room with me... did I subconsciously hear him??)... but, also remember putting my life in God's hands and telling him that the desire of my heart was to stay here and raise my kids (then 5 and 2). Didn't know which way it would go... but, just knew what my desires were. I'm only 2nd semester in the nursing program now, but have already heard them tell us that hearing is the last to go. I don't know how close (though the doctors told me later that they thought they was going to lose me) to death I was... no tunnels... no bright lights... but, definately felt trapped within myself wondering why no one else "out there" seemed to hear me as I kept saying... "I just want to go home"... but, death was not the home I was referring to... but, this old leaky house that contained my life, my kids, my husband and everything precious to me. (3 months after coming out of 4 weeks in ICU... my husband died of lung cancer). Maybe there's a reason for everything...

allnurses Guide · Apr 1, 2005

Widow - thank you for sharing your experience. I agree, none of us know what an ill or dying person is going through.

We blindly forge ahead with sharing our ideas though.

I saw the interview with Michael's girlfriend's brother when he got the news about Terri's death and couldn't help being bugged by it. Why have a camera in your face for such a time? Did he know Terri before she became brain damaged? Why do people get so upset at people seeing Terri after her brain damage? Is she not worthy of being viewed as a human being or should we shut her off in a closet because she doesn't look the way she did? I think that in itself is appalling.

I was reading People Magazine today while in the park with my son and there was a story about Terri with lots more photos than I've ever seen. There was a high school photo where she weighed over 200 pounds. Should we not show her high school photo because she is overweight? There is a photo of her after her accident looking quite lovely and looking up into Michael's face. I'm wondering how much she deteriorated from the beginning until now - that one photo that has been in the news with the short haircut and the arched eyebrows and the make-up was taken after her accident. She seemed in better shape.

There are lots of holes in this story.

steph

Roland · Apr 1, 2005

I will give Michael S. one thing he wasn't motivated by money. At http://www.glennbeck.com there was a drive to raise money to give pledge to Mr. Schiavo if he would give up custody of Terri to her parents. He had well over six million in donations (my $200.00 pledge was in there somewhere). Now even if only 50% of that money actually came in that still well over three million. Alot of people would sell their SO to Fijian cannibals for that kind of money especially if they were in the kind of comprimised state that Terri was in.

Don't get me wrong I still think he's a bastard that abused his wife. BUT, he is determined. When I see Michael S. I "see" the same smug attitude that I saw in Scott Peterson. Unfortunately, Michael will probably never answer for anything.

Widow - thank you for sharing your experience. I agree, none of us know what an ill or dying person is going through.
We blindly forge ahead with sharing our ideas though.
I saw the interview with Michael's girlfriend's brother when he got the news about Terri's death and couldn't help being bugged by it. Why have a camera in your face for such a time? Did he know Terri before she became brain damaged? Why do people get so upset at people seeing Terri after her brain damage? Is she not worthy of being viewed as a human being or should we shut her off in a closet because she doesn't look the way she did? I think that in itself is appalling.
I was reading People Magazine today while in the park with my son and there was a story about Terri with lots more photos than I've ever seen. There was a high school photo where she weighed over 200 pounds. Should we not show her high school photo because she is overweight? There is a photo of her after her accident looking quite lovely and looking up into Michael's face. I'm wondering how much she deteriorated from the beginning until now - that one photo that has been in the news with the short haircut and the arched eyebrows and the make-up was taken after her accident. She seemed in better shape.
There are lots of holes in this story.
steph

danu3 · Apr 1, 2005

Here are some random thoughts:

* There is a miscomparison of comparing Terri's situation to a patient who is actively dying from a disease like cancer. When the tube is pulled, the cancer patient is killed by the disease, not starving or hydration usually. Terri is not actively dying (this is mentioned many times by different posters, myself included).

* There is a miscomparison also of comparing Terri's situation to someone who is dying of dehydration as if someone is dying of thirst in the desert or even someone who is starving in some developing world somewhere. The miscomparasion comes in because Terri has Hospice there to manage the pain while someone who is dying of thirst in a desert or starving in Africa somewhere do not have anything like Hospice to manage the pain. If she is in extreme pain, then the hospice staff is not doing their job (as one poster mentioned already)

* It is true that the husband did not let the parents by the bedside when Terri died. But it is also true he allowed the parents back a few moments later after Terri died. He could have not allow them back in period. See

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11281109.htm

toward the end.

* Given what is going on, the husband is in a no win situation. If he does not allow the family to see Terri, he is accuse of all kinds of things. If he does allow them to see Terri, they will play with the media emotions. The parent's description has lost all credibility to me when the dad say he worries hospice will try to kill her daughter. Also when the priest describe Terri last few minutes (which is explain quite well by previous posters who are familiar with the dying process) and I guess I mistakenly assume priests are familiar with dying, guess not. So looks like he tried to compromise and let the family in part of the time which did not help.

* There are deep hatred between both sides and both are suppose to be Christians? If so, this is a sad day for Christians.

* Both sides' representitive is not trustworthy. The husband's lawyer is a right-to-die avocate (See the book by "Litigation as Spiritual Practice" by Felos). The family spokeman is a right-to-life avocate (Father Frank Pavone). I don't trust their description of Terri at all. When the husband's lawyer say Terri is so peaceful, I don't believe it. When the parent side say Terri is such pain, I don't believe it. I think the truth is probably that Terri looks like she is in some pain but hospice (if they do their job) is managing it as best as they could. Dying is not necessary peaceful all the time.

* How we respond to this actually tells a lot about us individually as a person.

* In cases like this, it is not what we hear and see that is important. It is what we don't hear and see that is important as both sides seemed to conviently ignore certain facts and thus distort the truth.

* People (the public) do not really understand what is PVE. The medical community need some PR in terms of educating what PVE looks like. According to the Wolfson's report on page 32 "...A particularly disarming aspect of persons diagnosed with persistent vegetative state is that they have waking and sleeping cycles. when awake, their eyes are often open, they make noises, they appear to track movement, they respond to deep pain, and appear startled by loud noises. Further, because the autonomic nervous system those brain related functions are not affected, they can often breathe (without a respirator) and swallow (saliva). But there is no purposeful, reproducible, interactive, awareness. There is some controversy within the scientific medical literature regarding the characterization and diagnosis of persons in a persistent vegetative state. Highly competent, scientifically based physicians using recognized measures and standards have deduced, within a high degree of medical certainty, that Theresa is in a persistent vegetative state. This evidence is compelling.

* Here is a quote from Wolfson's report on pg 33 which shed light on the emotional part of it "...This having been siad, Theresa has a distinct presence about her. Being with Theresa, holding her hand, looking into her eyes and watching how she is lovingly treated by Michael (yes, her husband), her parents and family and the clinical staff at hospice is an emotional and experience. It would be easy to detach from her if she were comatose, asleep with her eyes closed and made no noises. this is the confusing thing for the lay person about persistent vegetative states." The parenthesis is mine.

* Terri's case raises many questions. Will there be a law requireing all PVE patients be sustain even if it is against family wish? Will there be a law requiremeing all PVE patients be allow to die even if it is against family wish? This is possible given recently there is a case in Texas where the hospital let a child died against the parents wish (See http://www.tomahjournal.com/articles/2005/03/30/opinion/01edlife.txt). This case is probably even more important than Terri's case and it went under the radar.

* Lots of people do not know this, but the parents did change their minds on certain topics (which is ok). The first topic is that at one point, the parents agree that Terri is in PVE during the early years. Currently, they are disputing whether Terri is in PVE and in certain instances, it even seemed they dispute whether there is even such state as PVE. Ref is in the Wolfson's report, age 36 down at the footnote. The second topic is that the parents did at one point say they will kepp Terri alive at all costs, no matter how bad it is (people who are on the husband side will quote in horrific details of this which is recorded in court document. But people also conviently left out that currently this is actually not accurate. They is certain point they are going to let Terri go. See Wolfson's report page 37 in the footnote section.

* As for the allegatiion that the husband refuse to let Terri go because of financial interests or that he abused her to such a degree as to cause Terri's hospitalization, according to the Wolfson's report, that has not been sustain.

* Both the parents and the husband were united to help Terri UNTIL they won the suit. They all hell broke lose.

To quote the Wolfson's report again :

Page 37's footnote of the Wolfson's report: "...The Schindlers and the Schiavos are normal, decent people who have found themselves within

the construct of an exceptional circumstance which none of them, indeed, few reasonable and normal people could have imagined. As a consequence of this circumstance, extensive urban mythology has created toxic clouds, causing the parties and others to behave in ways that may not, in the order of things, serve the best interests of the ward..." Bold is mine.

-Dan