Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

danu3 · Apr 1, 2005

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11281109.htm

Take a look the end of the article about the hospice workers, it is touching.

-Dan

danu3 · Apr 1, 2005

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11281109.htm
Take a look the end of the article about the hospice workers, it is touching.
-Dan

Sorry about this link, it looks like you have to register first.

Here is a round about way of getting in without registering (don't know how long it will last).

Go to goole and search on "Hush prevailed in Schiavo room at hospice" and then clink on the newspaper icon close to the top where you see the same title.

-Dan

Roland · Apr 1, 2005

So what makes one Guardian Ad Litem's report so authoritative I actually served as a GAL the very year that I graduated from high school in an alleged sexual abuse case (actually I quit three weeks into the project because I couldn't handle all of the issues involved but that's not the point). At least in my case the GAL was heavily orientated towards the perspective of social services and not the parents. In any case that same report called for therapy and swallowing tests for Mrs Schiavo which Mr. Schiavo would not allow as indicated in this statement by Jeb Bush:

TALLAHASSEE--"I appreciate Dr. Wolfson's time and effort in this endeavor. I also respect the tremendous challenge of preparing an accurate, independent and thorough review of nearly 10 years of information in only 30 days. That Dr. Wolfson recognizes the continued need for an independent third party Guardian Ad Litem is encouraging, as is his recommendation that Mrs. Schiavo undergo swallowing tests and therapy. Based on this third party analysis, I am hopeful that Mr. Schiavo and his attorney will no longer prevent this vital testing from taking place. This would be a first step in the fresh, clean-hands start that Dr. Wolfson recommended at the end of his report.

There's one other aspect of this case which is unusual. The parents, nurses ect. were not even allowed to try to give Terri liquid or food by mouth. She didn't drool so she had at least some ability to swallow. Its one thing to take out a feeding tube and quite another to not even allow ice chips orally.

Also, I have yet to hear a single coherent explanation of the bone scan which showed a history of multiple previous trauma's. Mrs. Schiavo was not an athlete and yet had multiple, healed previous fractures. Also, the hospital did not conclude that she had an eating disorder after her collaspe. Rather, they were unable to determine the cause of her injuries. Because her serum potassium levels were somewhat low at discharge this was proferred as a possible explanation for her condition (note however that her cardiac enzymes were not elevated). Dr. Michael Baden is on record as saying that he does not think it likely that electrolyte imbalance caused her to have a cardiac arrest. Note also that Mrs. Schiavo had not lost significant weight in the year before her collaspe. Her weight loss had occured about three years before that time.

Why in this age of rampent spousal abuse does everyone seem so unwilling to believe that Michael Schiavo may have abused his wife? All I'm asking for is an investigation (which never occured at the time despite the fact that the paramedics report indicated that the circumstances warranted such an investitgation). Let's interview the paramedics who were on the scene. Let's take depositions from friends and families who knew Terri at the time of her collaspe. Let's look at her previous medical records to determine if there was evidence of an eating disorder or spousal abuse. Let's get an independent autopsy, one done by a forensic pathologist who doesn't have so many local ties with the vested interests that go with such ties. Let's re-examine the testimony of nurses Heidi Law and Karla Ayer who say that they witnessed abuse by Michael Schiavo while Mrs. Schiavo was in LTC (for example Mrs. Ayer says that she was fired for filing a police report after she discovered Michael trying to kill his wife with an insulin injection. Can this report be located?). Judge Greer wasn't interested in hearing any of these things because he said it was relevent to Terri's situation (and the prosecutor said that the statute of limitations had run out on any crimes in any case). Well now Terri is dead and there is not statute of limitations on murder. Remember, that Michael Schiavo now has another SO with two kids. This isn't a moot point since those who abuse seldom do it in only one case. Are all of you so sure of his innocence that you are willing to bet the lives of his current family?

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11281109.htm
Take a look the end of the article about the hospice workers, it is touching.
-Dan

danu3 · Apr 1, 2005

So what makes one Guardian Ad Litem's report so authoritative I actually served as a GAL the very year that I graduated from high school in an alleged sexual abuse case (actually I quit three weeks into the project because I couldn't handle all of the issues involved but that's not the point). At least in my case the GAL was heavily orientated towards the perspective of social services and not the parents.

There is a very big difference between you serving as GAL and the Wolfson's report. One, Dr. Wolfson is a doctor and an attorney. Second, I have no idea what kind of report you have to write when you serve as a GAL, is it the same high quality as this report? Third, his report is the most neutral one that I've seen. Fourth, he tried to be fair if you read his report and he tried to be understanding of both sides. Fifth, he almost got both parties to agree but it fell apart toward the end. Sixth, this is probably the least judgemental report I've seen.

I am quoting the Wolfson's report because this is one of the source document which other people quote (from both side). My experience is if the source document is easily available, read it yourself and forget what other people say it say.

In any case that same report called for therapy and swallowing tests for Mrs Schiavo which Mr. Schiavo would not allow as indicated in this statement by Jeb Bush

This is a classic misquote. Read the report yourself. If you can't get it, I can show you how to get it.

Hold it, here it is on page 36, I'll save you the troubel.

"Is there feasibility and value in swallowing tests and swallowing therapy given the totality of circumstances?

a. Yes. There is feasibility and value in swallowing tests and swallowing therapy being administered if the parties agree in advance as to how the results of these tests will be used with respect to the decision about Theresa's future. If the parties do not agree in advance as to how the tests will be used, then the court must be prepared to once again make a final judgement on the matter. Given the history of the case, this wuold not, in and of itself, assure a resolution, and is not, therefore, deemed either feasible or of value to Theresa Schiavo without prior agreement.'

It looks like Jeb Bush just read the conditional "Yes" part. The whole thing say it has only value if both parties agree ahead of time as to how the results are use in terms of making decisions. Given the history, it is not of any value because both parties will not agree. So the answer is really a "No".

-Dan

danu3 · Apr 1, 2005

There's one other aspect of this case which is unusual. The parents, nurses ect. were not even allowed to try to give Terri liquid or food by mouth. She didn't drool so she had at least some ability to swallow. Its one thing to take out a feeding tube and quite another to not even allow ice chips orally.

Please cite your source here so I can personally take a look. I know it is a pain, if you can't find it, it is ok. But I would really like to look at it myself.

Also, I have yet to hear a single coherent explanation of the bone scan which showed a history of multiple previous trauma's. Mrs. Schiavo was not an athlete and yet had multiple, healed previous fractures. Also, the hospital did not conclude that she had an eating disorder after her collaspe. Rather, they were unable to determine the cause of her injuries. Because her serum potassium levels were somewhat low at discharge this was proferred as a possible explanation for her condition (note however that her cardiac enzymes were not elevated). Dr. Michael Baden is on record as saying that he does not think it likely that electrolyte imbalance caused her to have a cardiac arrest. Note also that Mrs. Schiavo had not lost significant weight in the year before her collaspe. Her weight loss had occured about three years before that time.

I thought there is a post here that talk about this. Anyone remember it?

Ok, according to the Wolfson's report again (I keep citing it because I try to be open to where my primary source of information are and you can evaluate it on your own and make your own conclusion), page 11, the eating disorder is really an educated guess base on the fact that she has "agressive weight loss, diet control, and excessive hydration" according to the medical record. About the weight loss, this is in contradiction about some people say she did not lost significant weight in the year before her collaspe. The cause of the cardiac arrest is due to the huge potasium reductiion in her body in which we all know will affect her electrolyte. Dr Baden can have his professional opinion, but it looks like other doctor may disagree. Which doctor you believe depends on which side you are on.

Why in this age of rampent spousal abuse does everyone seem so unwilling to believe that Michael Schiavo may have abused his wife? All I'm asking for is an investigation (which never occured at the time despite the fact that the paramedics report indicated that the circumstances warranted such an investitgation).

They have investigated it and no charges are pressed. Again the Wolfson's report mentioned it also.

Well now Terri is dead and there is not statute of limitations on murder. Remember, that Michael Schiavo now has another SO with two kids. This isn't a moot point since those who abuse seldom do it in only one case. Are all of you so sure of his innocence that you are willing to bet the lives of his current family?

Well, it is possible her husband did abuse Terri, but isn't it possible that he did not? Why insist on him abusing his wife? Remember you have the extremes on both sides, at least for me, I don't trust both sides and both sides have a tendency to distort things. Like you said, if Terry's husband did abuse her and these kind of people will probably repeat. Let's wait and see. I persoanlly do not know enough about his innocent or guilt. But I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. Are you sure that he is guilty and willing to put a potentially innocent man through a few more years of legal torture? Remember there are deep hatred between both sides and I am not going to be surprised if the family just distorted things (as they are extremely desperate) to accuse the husband.

-Dan

James Huffman · Apr 1, 2005

Since you have provided no links to prove your statements about Michael, then I am not going to bother to do so, either. Why should you demand of others what you fail to do yourself?

1. Actually, I have -- in some detail -- provided evidence and eyewitness accounts about the statements I've made about Michael Schiavo. You are welcome to search those, should you be so inclined.

2. And, of course, you are the one making these charges, saying, for instance, that I am "demonizing Michael Schindler." The one making the charges is the one responsible for backing up those statements, not the one who questions the charges. Does this mean, as I suspect, that you have no evidence, and are merely making unfounded charges?

3. I am also suspicious of the veracity of charges made by someone who can't even get the names straight of those being spoken about. Schindler and Michael Schiavo are not exactly minor participants in this discussion.

4. Are you saying by this also that your slanders against the pro-life community (that they are behind death threats) are unfounded and incorrect?

Jim Huffman, RN

Tweety, BSN, RN · Apr 1, 2005

Widow2RN, thanks for sharing your story. I'm not sure your story and Benedikta story of vomitting and becoming dehydrated compares well to a person taking their final breaths. But as no one has come back to tell us what it's truly like.

To answer your question whose to say that Terri wasn't screaming out in her final breaths during the dying process for help, is indeed a frightning thing to consider. I still think that a person is way to hypoxic for the brain to function at that capacity, but again, I'm no expert.

If people think she was a living, feeling person, then I have to wonder what was she saying during those 15 years to herself. Was she depressed, sad, happy. Did she ever have a headache, stomachache. Was she thinking "please let me live" as some people want to project on her. Or after 15 years, was she tired of it all. I hope she doesn't come back to haunt those who kept her alive 15 years. I know I would.

Again, though we can only project our own feelings and experiences, and make our judgements from there. (Which is what this preist was doing, staring at her in an hour, he projected his own experiences and feelings onto her. Which is odd, as a man of faith, sounds like he has some fear of death. I agree with Fab4, he should have said something to the staff so they could have helped her. I hope at least he was comforting her fear, talking to her, praying with her, rather than just staring into her face.)

bugsbee · Apr 1, 2005

Mr Huffman

You had better take a better look at what your saying, which is nothing. Only your opinion and we are all entitled to ours. None of us will really know the truth until the autopsy is done. And we will pray it was a chemical imbalance due to Terris eating disorder. Lets not make this worse then what it is.

James Huffman · Apr 1, 2005

Mr Huffman
You had better take a better look at what your saying, which is nothing. Only your opinion and we are all entitled to ours. None of us will really know the truth until the autopsy is done. And we will pray it was a chemical imbalance due to Terris eating disorder. Lets not make this worse then what it is.

Wow. Can't argue with logic like that. You argue that what I'm saying is "nothing," but that we are "all entitled to our opinions." I guess some opinions are more equal than others.

When, exactly, did I give my "opinion"? If we want to discuss this sad case, we should do so with information. Saying "we are all entitled to our opinions" is absolutely correct, and at the same time does nothing whatsoever to advance any understandings about this or any other controversy.

And as for "praying" that it was a chemical disorder due to Terri's eating disorder," well, let's just say that I wouldn't want to pray that anyone would have an eating disorder, now or in the past.

I look for proof in this case. If clear, compelling evidence comes forth that Michael Schiavo had nothing whatsoever to do with the initial cause of Ms. Schiavo's disability (the event on Feb. 25, 1990), I will happily concede that my suspicions were unfounded. But I'm not holding my breath. Will you -- and others who disagree with me -- say the same thing if proof comes forth that he had something to do with it?

Jim Huffman, RN

tattoonurse · Apr 1, 2005

Wow. Can't argue with logic like that. You argue that what I'm saying is "nothing," but that we are "all entitled to our opinions." I guess some opinions are more equal than others.
When, exactly, did I give my "opinion"? If we want to discuss this sad case, we should do so with information. Saying "we are all entitled to our opinions" is absolutely correct, and at the same time does nothing whatsoever to advance any understandings about this or any other controversy.
And as for "praying" that it was a chemical disorder due to Terri's eating disorder," well, let's just say that I wouldn't want to pray that anyone would have an eating disorder, now or in the past.
I look for proof in this case. If clear, compelling evidence comes forth that Michael Schiavo had nothing whatsoever to do with the initial cause of Ms. Schiavo's disability (the event on Feb. 25, 1990), I will happily concede that my suspicions were unfounded. But I'm not holding my breath. Will you -- and others who disagree with me -- say the same thing if proof comes forth that he had something to do with it?
Jim Huffman, RN

I think you all have missed the point she has not been this way for a few months, but 15 years. He hasn't been the best husband, but wounldn't anyone else have gotten a quickie divorce if they hadn't wanted to deal with this. You see it everyday, I understand a parents grief, but you have to let go at some point, If she told him she didn't want to be kept alive then he did the right thing, and isn't it easier for us to sit on our holier than thou thrones and judge him for what we would have done when you never really know. And I for one hope I never have to.

James Huffman · Apr 1, 2005

I think you all have missed the point she has not been this way for a few months, but 15 years. He hasn't been the best husband, but wounldn't anyone else have gotten a quickie divorce if they hadn't wanted to deal with this. You see it everyday, I understand a parents grief, but you have to let go at some point, If she told him she didn't want to be kept alive then he did the right thing, and isn't it easier for us to sit on our holier than thou thrones and judge him for what we would have done when you never really know. And I for one hope I never have to.

1. The suspicion I -- and others have -- is that there was trauma to the neck, leading to anoxia, and that this was the cause of her disability. Since Michael Schiavo was the only person in her proximity that night, it seems logical to suspect that he might have been a party to that trauma.

2. If such suspicions are correct, Michael Schiavo would have a very good reason to stay married to her, and thereby in control of any treatment and examinations or lack thereof.

3. The nasty comments he made (and which were certified to by Carla Iyer, RN) are cited to indicate that Michael Schiavo rejoiced when Ms. Schiavo had illnesses, gloated at the idea of her death, and bragged about the riches that would come his way when she died. These are simply not the normal comments of a grieving spouse.

4. Whether she ever said that "she wouldn't want to be kept alive" is something we now will never know. The only 2 alleged witnesses to these remarks are Michael Schiavo and his brother-in-law. Others she was close to -- parents, friends, and other family members -- never heard any such comments.

Jim Huffman, RN

Tweety, BSN, RN · Apr 1, 2005

Wow. Can't argue with logic like that. You argue that what I'm saying is "nothing," but that we are "all entitled to our opinions." I guess some opinions are more equal than others.
When, exactly, did I give my "opinion"? If we want to discuss this sad case, we should do so with information. Saying "we are all entitled to our opinions" is absolutely correct, and at the same time does nothing whatsoever to advance any understandings about this or any other controversy.
And as for "praying" that it was a chemical disorder due to Terri's eating disorder," well, let's just say that I wouldn't want to pray that anyone would have an eating disorder, now or in the past.
I look for proof in this case. If clear, compelling evidence comes forth that Michael Schiavo had nothing whatsoever to do with the initial cause of Ms. Schiavo's disability (the event on Feb. 25, 1990), I will happily concede that my suspicions were unfounded. But I'm not holding my breath. Will you -- and others who disagree with me -- say the same thing if proof comes forth that he had something to do with it?
Jim Huffman, RN

Jim, I will humbly face facts if it's proved Terri's condition was caused by Mr. Shaivo. I would hope criminal charges be brought against him, if it can be proved any injuries he gave her caused this incident. Not that there were injuries (if you autopsied me you would find injuries), but injuries that caused this incident.

As for opinions, I think sometimes we have to look at the facts presented to us in this case and others, and form an opinion about it. Such as some people's opinion is that a living breathing person should never have treatment discontinued. Other's have a differing opinion. We all are given the same facts and evidnence on which to base our opinion on. I'm not saying you ever gave an opinion, but consider why some of us have. (Really, aren't you're "suspicions" somewhat of an opinion?

p.s. I respect how well you're holding up considering soem of the flames thrown your way. :)