You think the "Nursing Glut" is bad now?

[Guttercat]

I tend to keep my finger on the pulse of new(er) trends.

This subject is something I've alluded to before, yet now I am even more convinced it may become reality.

My state--a west coast state--recently (last year) redefined the scope of practice for MA's to include much of what RN's are responsible for, based on a new tiered level of education and certifications. Colleges have jumped on the bandwagon to develop intense MA programs to fill the need.

At one time, MA's were relegated mostly to Dr.'s offices (which used to be the domain of RN's). That may not be the case much longer, if the trending continues.

I was just speaking with a fellow student from a math class, who is pursuing her MA. One of our college's nursing program professors is apparently steering potential nursing candidates (friends of hers) away from the nursing program on the QT. She stated, "Now that the scope of practice for MA's has been legally expanded, the hospital is looking to integrate MA's to fill the floors, instead of the more costly RN's."

Just sayin'. Research on your own, and draw your own conclusions.

[hope3456, ASN, RN]

ShilaBSN

I would be curious to know your stance on MA's calling themselves 'nurse.'

Like when you call your MD office and ask to speak to the nurse and it is the MA then giving advice.

[BrandonLPN, LPN]

"The tone of this toxic thread is one of the many reasons facilities are looking at expanding tasks for those that are not licensed or have less schooling.

While I think nurses are the BEST choice for patient care, we may be selling ourselves short by back biting all the time. If I can get a MA to insert foleys, give meds etc and they don't complain about their hours, the patients or the work load vs a nurse who will do the same tasks but will complain about working nights, weekends etc and cost more.....well who would you chose?"

BrandonLPN [apparently] I stand by my original statements.

Re read my post it states the BEST choice is nursing for these tasks, however the fact is MD offices have already switched to MAs. Many MAs have done a great job in the MD practice area; I have witnessed this up close. I have seen them take vitals, do intakes, input data in EMRs, give report to the MD, do injections, give nebs, add scripts to the EMR....all under the MDs license and CONTROL.

Many outpatient facilities are owned by Providers, how long will it take them to use MAs in this arena to save money?

What I took issue with was how you implied that nurses should quit whining over working conditions since employers can always just replace them with cheaper MAs.

[NightNurseRN13]

In my part of the country, RNs are very rarely employed in physician office settings... mostly only large, multi-specialty clinics. Office staff is generally LVN & MA. BTW, I believe we are one of the 2 remaining states that still have "permissive licensure" - whereby physicians can 'delegate' anything they want to, to whomever they choose (srsly) because that individual is working under her/his license. But because they are also practicing in one of the most litigious states, physicians are unlikely to take advantage of this loophole because of the risks associated with it.

Bottom line? Just like all healthcare service providers, physicians are scrambling to stabilize their incomes in light of dramatic changes that accompany the ACA. I've seen some of the financial projections of the impact on reimbursement & it ain't pretty. When it comes to trimming costs, labor is a fat juicy target.

Just curious - with the change in MA scope for WA state, is there very much overlap with LPNs? If so, THAT is the group that should be really concerned.

Here in NC, Doctors offices have mostly MOA's. One RN per module, One LPN and the rest MOA's. It's been that way for a while now... way before the ACA came a long.

LPNs were taken out of the hospital setting altogether and RNs with associate degrees are being forced to go get their BSN.

I think facilities that are there for strictly profit will look for anyway to save money, but non-for-profit hospitals will still seek the skill set that we possess.

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

Interestingly, it is the newer BSN's who are getting what just a few years ago would be on the low end of MA pay.

Most hospitals on the east coast want all their nurses to be BSNs in acute care. If they can have a BSN who is a total care nurse for say $15 an hour, why would they then hire MA's?

A lot of the working conditions are less than stellar now. There are people who paid top dollar for their BSN's and can't even find a job. And those who do find that the "money" is just enough to pay loans--and hardly enough to live on.

If an MA makes min. wage, and put to the same tasks currently done by nurses, it would not be long I would think before they would be complaining. MA's have to be directed by someone. They are not exclusive to their own scope of practice, or a license.

With that being said, not everyone is cut out for, nor can do (for a variety of other reasons) a BSN program. Is it a viable option? Perhaps. However, when reality hits and their scope varies widely from facility to facility to MD office, it just may not be the "dream job" that schools are making it out to be.

[NightNurseRN13]

Look at the debates.. Diploma and ASNs still vouch that they can perform just as well as a BSN. Its all about experience. Grant the MA the same experience, and they, too, can perform equally as well in the field of desired work (as is my theory).

They can perform just as well, but can they think and communicate just as well? No, they can't I am an ADN and while "in the field" I can perform the same duties as a BSN, my training in theory, writing and research lack BIG time compared to those with their BSN.

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

Oh, and for note--for profit schools will tell anyone anything to get that tuition money. Because when the whole "using MA's in acute care instead of nurses" doesn't pan out, hopefully you would go back to them for a 4 year degree. And because your course of study as an MA doesn't transfer anything to a degree, you start at square one.

And I agree, NightNurseRN13, it may be "all about the experience".

Most facilities could care less if you can blow glitter out your butt whilst cheering a patient to healthy living as an LPN/Diploma/ADN--they want a BSN. Even if you were the bottom of your class, barely passed clinical, and passed the NCLEX on the 6th try. Don't worry, they will mold you into their own image.

I can't imagine they will embrace the MA concept--bottom line, if they hire people to be directed by BSN's, there is a small probability (small probability) that it may make the workload lighter. And why in the world would management want to do that?!

[KRVRN, BSN, RN]

Interestingly, it is the newer BSN's who are getting what just a few years ago would be on the low end of MA pay.

Most hospitals on the east coast want all their nurses to be BSNs in acute care. If they can have a BSN who is a total care nurse for say $15 an hour, why would they then hire MA's?

Is that really what new grads make on the east coast? Is the cost of living low enough for that to work?

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

Is that really what new grads make on the east coast? Is the cost of living low enough for that to work?

No...I'm on the east coast-mid 20s-low/mid 30s per hr in my area.

[NurseNightOwl, BSN, RN]

Interestingly, it is the newer BSN's who are getting what just a few years ago would be on the low end of MA pay.

Most hospitals on the east coast want all their nurses to be BSNs in acute care. If they can have a BSN who is a total care nurse for say $15 an hour, why would they then hire MA's?

A lot of the working conditions are less than stellar now. There are people who paid top dollar for their BSN's and can't even find a job. And those who do find that the "money" is just enough to pay loans--and hardly enough to live on.

If an MA makes min. wage, and put to the same tasks currently done by nurses, it would not be long I would think before they would be complaining. MA's have to be directed by someone. They are not exclusive to their own scope of practice, or a license.

With that being said, not everyone is cut out for, nor can do (for a variety of other reasons) a BSN program. Is it a viable option? Perhaps. However, when reality hits and their scope varies widely from facility to facility to MD office, it just may not be the "dream job" that schools are making it out to be.

Even in the deep, deep South (lowest cost of living and per hour pay for most jobs), new grads make at least $20/hr.

[Nurse Leigh]

Even in the deep, deep South (lowest cost of living and per hour pay for most jobs), new grads make at least $20/hr.

They make less than $20 to start here in my part of the Midwest. Of course, the not for profit network pays more (though still under 20) than the for profit network.

[Kooky Korky, BSN, RN]

Blame the nurses? I don't know any nurses who think they are "too good" to do direct patient care at the bedside or anywhere else.

Are you telling your lawmakers in state and federal Congress what you think of this matter? Have you taken to the protest march or started informing various citizen groups of this situation - seniors groups, your church, your kids' schoolmates' parents, etc.

If not, you are part of the problem, not the solution.

If we were escaping bedside nursing, it was due to back trouble, night/day rotating shifts, and having too many patients, not due to thinking we were too good for the work. If we wanted to prescribe, it's because we were tired of the dirty work, not that we were too good for it, just that we were ready to climb higher, utilize our extensive knowledge and experience in less physical ways as we became older and less agile.

[NightNurseRN13]

I'm making 25$ as a new grad in NC