Yes, Employer Can Require Covid Vaccine

[TheMoonisMyLantern]

Apparently per the EEOC's guidelines employers (not just healthcare related) can mandate vaccination of workers. The exception is a "sincerely held religious belief" or a covered disability. Just found out this morning that a chain of for profit LTC/SNF's are rolling out a Covid vaccine mandate for all direct care staff or face indefinite unpaid administrative leave. I am a heavy supporter of vaccination and of the new COVID vaccine and in fact am due to get one in early January. But I am doing so of my own volition. My facility encouraged all workers to sign up for a vaccine and provided information sessions and it's been really effective at getting people to sign up. 

Even though I would disagree with someone's choice to not vaccinate, I don't believe they should be mandated at this point.

Yes, your employer can require you to get a COVID-19 vaccine, the EEOC says

[NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN]

JD Supra   January 22, 2021

Guidance Regarding Mandatory Vaccination Requirements for Employees and Residents of Long-Term Care

Long-Term Care Facilities Can Require that Their Employees Receive the COVID-19 Vaccine, with Exceptions

On December 16, 2020, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (“EEOC”) issued guidance regarding whether employers can require mandatory COVID-19 vaccines. The guidance states that employers may require employees to get the COVID-19 vaccine, subject to exceptions. These exceptions include physical disability, pursuant to the Americans with Disabilities Act ("ADA"), and sincere religious objections, pursuant to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

EEOC provided guidance

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If an employee indicates that he or she cannot get the vaccine due to a disability, employers should conduct an assessment on whether the employee poses a direct threat to the health and safety of other facility employees and/or residents. The guidance put forth by the EEOC states that “[a] conclusion that there is a direct threat would include a determination that an unvaccinated individual will expose others to the virus at the worksite.” An employee is entitled to reasonable accommodations unless there is no way to provide a reasonable accommodation absent undue hardship. Reasonable accommodations in a long-term care facility setting may include the mandatory use of masks, or transferring an employee into a different position that does not allow for interaction with residents. If the employer cannot reduce the threat, it can prevent the employee from physically entering the workplace, but that does not mean that the employer can automatically terminate the employee.

 Additionally, Long-Term Care Facilities Can Require Residents to Take the COVID-19 Vaccine as a Condition of Admission, with Exceptions.

 

[SmilingBluEyes]

23 hours ago, nursej22 said:

Could LTC residents and/or their families sue if they were infected and died because staff refused to vaccinate? 

of course they can sue! But will the suit be successful? Who knows for sure?

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

1 hour ago, nursej22 said:

You are bouncing all over the place with your arguments, so it is hard to take you seriously. I get that you personally don't want the vaccine and no government entity is forcing it on you. Period. Yes, Dr. Fauci commented on them today, but after he was asked. He is in no way promoting vaccine passports. 

I doubt that 1000,00 died from smoking yesterday. I don't know where you live but n my area, smoking is prohibited in most indoor settings, except in private residences. And it has been shown to decrease death and disease. Many health insurance companies charge higher premiums for smokers, and some employers screen for nicotine use. I suppose you think a class action suit should be filed? 

Which part of the Constitution lists travel as a fundamental liberty? 

I do think governments are becoming more authoritarian, but I don't lay that on China. 

The CDC estimates 480,000 die each year in the United States alone of smoking related illness https://www.CDC.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/index.htm#:~:text=Cigarettes and Death,-Cigarette smoking causes&text=More than 480%2C000 deaths annually,including deaths from secondhand smoke)  .

480,000 divided by 365 is around 1315 I rounded down to a 1000.00 to be conservative.  China is perhaps the most brutal government on Earth and has created concentration camps for political dissidents as well as created a ruthless social credit scoring system and seems to be the "leader" in political repression.  The following is from Wikipedia regarding the fundamental nature of the right to travel:

Travel within the United States[edit]

Constitutional freedom[edit]

As early as the Articles of Confederation the Congress recognized freedom of movement (Article 4), though the right was thought to be so fundamental during the drafting of the Constitution as not needing explicit enumeration.[4]

The U.S. Supreme Court in Crandall v. Nevada, 73 U.S. 35 (1868) declared that freedom of movement is a fundamental right and therefore a state cannot inhibit people from leaving the state by taxing them. In United States v. Wheeler, 254 U.S. 281 (1920), the Supreme Court reiterated its position that the Constitution did not grant the federal government the power to protect freedom of movement. However, Wheeler had a significant impact in other ways. For many years, the roots of the Constitution's "privileges and immunities" clause had only vaguely been determined.[5] In 1823, the circuit court in Corfield had provided a list of the rights (some fundamental, some not) which the clause could cover.[6][7] The Wheeler court dramatically changed this. It was the first to locate the right to travel in the privileges and immunities clause, providing the right with a specific guarantee of constitutional protection.[8] By reasoning that the clause derived from Article IV of the Articles of Confederation, the decision suggested a narrower set of rights than those enumerated in Corfield, but also more clearly defined those rights as absolutely fundamental.[9] The Supreme Court began rejecting Wheeler's reasoning within a few years. Finally, in United States v. Guest, 383 U.S. 745 (1966), the Supreme Court overruled Chief Justice White's conclusion that the federal government could protect the right to travel only against state infringement.[2][3][10]

The Supreme Court has specifically ruled that Crandall does not imply a right to use any particular mode of travel, such as driving an automobile. In Hendrick v. Maryland (1915), the appellant asked the Court to void Maryland's motor vehicle statute as a violation of the freedom of movement. The Court found "no solid foundation" for the appellant's argument and unanimously held that "in the absence of national legislation covering the subject, a state may rightfully prescribe uniform regulations necessary for public safety and order in respect to the operation upon its highways of all motor vehicles — those moving in interstate commerce as well as others."[11]

The U.S. Supreme Court also dealt with the right to travel in the case of Saenz v. Roe, 526 U.S. 489 (1999). In that case, Justice John Paul Stevens, writing for the majority, held that the United States Constitution protected three separate aspects of the right to travel among the states:

(1) the right to enter one state and leave another (an inherent right with historical support from the Articles of Confederation),

(2) the right to be treated as a welcome visitor rather than a hostile stranger (protected by the "Privileges and Immunities" clause in Article IV, § 2), and

(3) (for those who become permanent residents of a state) the right to be treated equally to native-born citizens (this is protected by the 14th Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause; citing the majority opinion in the Slaughter-House Cases, Justice Stevens said, "the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment . . . has always been common ground that this Clause protects the third component of the right to travel.").

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

1 hour ago, Curious1997 said:

 

And that's the difference in education between Americans and Europeans Macawake and GrumpyRN. You will not believe how many Drs and nurses that I know who are supposedly educated, have almost no context for any of their conclusions. To get by in classes, you just need to pass exams and impress the professor. Your specialty is all that matters. It leaves us capable, but unlikely to be able to draw from a knowledge base to broadly understand the subject. It was really evident to me when I spent some years in high school in England and two semesters in St Albans. 

* I think that's the function of govt which is why it's very important to choose wisely so they make wise choices, protecting us instead of fleecing us. But then socialism is a dirty word here despite America being the biggest Socialist country in history! 

Amazing, how poorly educated we are! 

I would argue that it is an ad hominem attack to denigrate someone that you disagree with as being "less or more poorly educated" simply because they have a different perspective.  

[toomuchbaloney]

1 hour ago, myoglobin said:

I would argue that it is an ad hominem attack to denigrate someone that you disagree with as being "less or more poorly educated" simply because they have a different perspective.  

Nope. Evidence supports that much of the anti-vaxx opinion shared in these threads is based in misinformation, speculation and/or fear mongering.  Making note of that poor educational base, which results in limited ability to evaluate the credibility of sources or information is not an attack or an insult.  

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

18 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Nope. Evidence supports that much of the anti-vaxx opinion shared in these threads is based in misinformation, speculation and/or fear mongering.  Making note of that poor educational base, which results in limited ability to evaluate the credibility of sources or information is not an attack or an insult.  

Wow, that is about as valid as me saying" Nope much of the pro totalitarian government, sentiment and refusal to evaluate data that suggests vaccination have important  risks as well as benefits indicate a poor ability to evaluate data and unwillingness to consider alternative perspectives"  We may as well be on the playground arguing which of our fathers can beat the other one up in a fight.  I would submit it is better to make your arguments and keep the playground antics to yourself.

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

2 hours ago, myoglobin said:

The CDC estimates 480,000 die each year in the United States alone of smoking related illness https://www.CDC.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/index.htm#:~:text=Cigarettes and Death,-Cigarette smoking causes&text=More than 480%2C000 deaths annually,including deaths from secondhand smoke)  .

480,000 divided by 365 is around 1315 I rounded down to a 1000.00 to be conservative.  China is perhaps the most brutal government on Earth and has created concentration camps for political dissidents as well as created a ruthless social credit scoring system and seems to be the "leader" in political repression.  The following is from Wikipedia regarding the fundamental nature of the right to travel: ...

 

Whew, I must have really pushed your buttons. 

Regarding the death from smoking comment: I didn't understand in your original post what "1000,00" meant, and I took it to mean "100,000" so I apologize. Your data from the CDC was published 7 years ago, and much of its data is from 2008 and 2010, so I have trouble believing that 1000 people a day continue to die from smoking. But do you dispute that there are several restrictions on smoking? 

As for the right to travel stuff from Wikipedia, it actually states: 

"The Supreme Court has specifically ruled that Crandall does not imply a right to use any particular mode of travel, such as driving an automobile." As far as I have heard, the vaccine passports have been suggested for airline travel, not all travel. 

I don't know how to rate the brutality of other governments, but Brazil, Venezuela, Turkey, Saudi Arabia,  the Philippines and Russia are rather tough on selected parts of their citizens. 

 

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

1 minute ago, nursej22 said:

Whew, I must have really pushed your buttons. 

Regarding the death from smoking comment: I didn't understand in your original post what "1000,00" meant, and I took it to mean "100,000" so I apologize. Your data from the CDC was published 7 years ago, and much of its data is from 2008 and 2010, so I have trouble believing that 1000 people a day continue to die from smoking. But do you dispute that there are several restrictions on smoking? 

As for the right to travel stuff from Wikipedia, it actually states: 

"The Supreme Court has specifically ruled that Crandall does not imply a right to use any particular mode of travel, such as driving an automobile." As far as I have heard, the vaccine passports have been suggested for airline travel, not all travel. 

I don't know how to rate the brutality of other governments, but Brazil, Venezuela, Turkey, Saudi Arabia,  the Philippines and Russia are rather tough on selected parts of their citizens. 

Okay, I will cede the point on mode of travel.  However, I would argue that if those who want  vaccine passports prevail that it very well may move in the direction of outright bans on travel without the the covid vaccine.  As to smoking I offer this straight from the CDC website:

Smoking leads to disease and disability and harms nearly every organ of the body.1

More than 16 million Americans are living with a disease caused by smoking.

For every person who dies because of smoking, at least 30 people live with a serious smoking-related illness.

Smoking causes cancer, heart disease, stroke, lung diseases, diabetes, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), which includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis.

Smoking also increases risk for tuberculosis, certain eye diseases, and problems of the immune system, including rheumatoid arthritis.

Smoking is a known cause of erectile dysfunction in males.

Smoking is the leading cause of preventable death.

Worldwide, tobacco use causes more than 7 million deaths per year.2 If the pattern of smoking all over the globe doesn’t change, more than 8 million people a year will die from diseases related to tobacco use by 2030.3

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.1

On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.4

If smoking continues at the current rate among U.S. youth, 5.6 million of today’s Americans younger than 18 years of age are expected to die prematurely from a smoking-related illness. This represents about one in every 13 Americans aged 17 years or younger who are alive today.1

As for China and human rights I offer 

https://freedomhouse.org/article/china-global-leader-political-prisoners  China is the global leader on political prisioners.

and  China is thought to forcefully harvest organs from live prisoners (including political prisoners).  They are perhaps the most brutal government certainly since the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia.  

 

[guest1163268]

2 hours ago, myoglobin said:

I would argue that it is an ad hominem attack to denigrate someone that you disagree with as being "less or more poorly educated" simply because they have a different perspective.  

It's not the perspective in so much as the conclusions. 

You mentioned smoking.... 2nd hand smoke? Solution.... Designated areas. 

Covid-19..... Solution? You make the connection. 

Travel? Is Covid-19 contagious? What has previously been used for contagion? 

You assigned blame to China. Would restricted travel have helped? 

Hypocrisy! Is it contagious? Stupidity? Is that contagious? I believe it is, because I avoid the stupid like a plague! 

America is great to be able to tolerate such levels of idiocy! 

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

12 minutes ago, myoglobin said:

no one is even proposing banning smoking.

You said this previously and I have twice pointed out that it is banned, at least in my area, in most indoor settings. Plus it is illegal for minors to purchase or use, and it is banned with 25 feet of the door to most businesses. I am not denying smoking is bad for your health and kills. My mother died of laryngeal cancer. 

And you don't like China. Okay, I get it. But private businesses, such as airlines, should be able to establish restrictions on vaccine status. And I think employers should be able to establish terms of employment. An organized group, such as a union, should be allowed to negotiate those terms.  

[NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN]

PA already has several lawsuits against nursing homes for COVID deaths, due to poor infection control practices, lack of PPE.  I'm waiting for the lawsuits in 2021 re of lack employee vaccinations if/when future widespread SNF  COVID-19 outbreaks occur.

Families sue Pennsylvania nursing home in wake of 73 COVID deaths 

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The families said staff failed to take proper measures to stem the outbreak

Pennsylvania nursing home sued over severe COVID-19 outbreak

Lawsuit alleges veterans at state-run nursing home were abandoned during first COVID-19 wave

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Families of Southeastern Veterans' Center residents who died of COVID-19 have filed a lawsuit in federal court, alleging negligence and wrongful death.

Four patients die and 31 test positive for coronavirus in Lancaster nursing home.

 

BINGO -- "available for consultation regarding neglect"  

Law group advice:  Nursing Home COVID-19 Infection
 

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Nursing Home COVID-19 Lawsuits

...When is it possible to sue a Pennsylvania or New Jersey nursing home for negligence?

...Stay At Home

For the elderly living in a nursing home, stay at home is the norm. But, every day the caretakers go home and to the store. These nursing caretakers are being exposed. This is especially troubling for those at increased risk. Caretakers may not show symptoms for several days or even weeks. By then, the entire nursing home could be infected....

...The Spread Of Infection In Nursing Homes

States have been trying to stop the spread of infection through stay-at-home orders. But, when an infected staff or family member enters a nursing home it spreads COVID-19. Additionally, cross-contamination spreads the virus to surfaces and people....

...COVID-19 is a scary virus. Especially for the immunocompromised and elderly community, this can be devastating. If you have an elderly loved-one that was exposed or died as a result of negligence, talk to an experienced attorney.

 

 

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

I don't think most would object to mandatory vaccines for nursing home workers once it is no longer available under an "emergency use provision". However, to require the vaccine to the wider population is what is likely to bring us to the brink (or beyond) of civil conflict.  My point about smoking is that it claims far more lives than Covid and probably kills at a younger average age (cannot find data on the average age of death to smokers verses Covid).  Also, many children are exposed to side stream smoke from their parents and placed at risk for COPD and even CA as adults.  Covid is a significant issue especially for older adults, but for most under 60 it remains a relatively low risk.  There is also perhaps reason to be concerned that those who have active Covid infection or who have high antibody titers might be at increased risk of side effects from vaccination.  In my "unscientific" sample of clients at least 50% who have had the vaccine have experienced significant side effects that have at least caused them to call in to work for several days. During the time I actually had Covid last year I didn't even have symptoms other than a bit of conjuntivitis (which was a pain) and a bit of listlessness. However, I didn't even miss my am workouts and worked remotely with no issues.  Same goes for everyone in my family who was also Covid positive.  

2 hours ago, Curious1997 said:

It's not the perspective in so much as the conclusions. 

You mentioned smoking.... 2nd hand smoke? Solution.... Designated areas. 

Covid-19..... Solution? You make the connection. 

Travel? Is Covid-19 contagious? What has previously been used for contagion? 

You assigned blame to China. Would restricted travel have helped? 

Hypocrisy! Is it contagious? Stupidity? Is that contagious? I believe it is, because I avoid the stupid like a plague! 

America is great to be able to tolerate such levels of idiocy! 

If calling people idiots makes you feel good about yourself then have at it. However, it does little to advance your claims to intellectual superiority.