Yes, Employer Can Require Covid Vaccine

[TheMoonisMyLantern]

Apparently per the EEOC's guidelines employers (not just healthcare related) can mandate vaccination of workers. The exception is a "sincerely held religious belief" or a covered disability. Just found out this morning that a chain of for profit LTC/SNF's are rolling out a Covid vaccine mandate for all direct care staff or face indefinite unpaid administrative leave. I am a heavy supporter of vaccination and of the new COVID vaccine and in fact am due to get one in early January. But I am doing so of my own volition. My facility encouraged all workers to sign up for a vaccine and provided information sessions and it's been really effective at getting people to sign up. 

Even though I would disagree with someone's choice to not vaccinate, I don't believe they should be mandated at this point.

Yes, your employer can require you to get a COVID-19 vaccine, the EEOC says

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

17 minutes ago, MunoRN said:

By combining the principles behind the right to refuse a medication and the right to refuse vaccination without any consequences you're conflating two completely different principles that our freedoms are based on.

You of course should have the right to refuse medications, since that is a decision that affects you, but the choice to vaccinate affects others to a much larger degree.  Our freedoms have never freely allowed people to put others at risk without the possibility of consequences.  

I would agree that people the right to decline to get vaccinated, but nursing home residents should also have the right to avoid unnecessary risk by employers of nursing home staff requiring that staff be vaccinated if they want to work there.  

The key is that everyone has freedoms and rights, and that means everyone, your rights and freedoms can't completely override that of others.

I remember everyone assuring me several months ago that there was "little if any" concern over mandatory vaccination with these vaccines as they were being authorized under "emergency provisions" rather than the regular approval process.  Now, few if any are offering that refuge.  If the vaccines are highly effective then older residents who have been vaccinated should have little to fear from those of us who are unvaccinated rather it is us who should be concerned. At the very least we should be able to offer evidence of positive antibody titers or previous infection as provisions for avoiding vaccination and or wearing N95 face masks while providing patient care.    The real civil crisis likely won't occur unless mandates start to appear outside the health care worker setting in to everyday life with things like the proposed "vaccine passports".  

[toomuchbaloney]

52 minutes ago, myoglobin said:

The right to decline medication or vaccination has nothing to do with politics, it is a fundamental human right.

You even quoted (but didn't cite) a survey which highlighted that for too many republicans,  vaccination decision-making IS a political issue. The 45th president politicized the messaging and lied about covid for a year.  That influences people as evidenced but the increased vaccine reluctance among republicans. 

[toomuchbaloney]

20 minutes ago, myoglobin said:

I remember everyone assuring me several months ago that there was "little if any" concern over mandatory vaccination with these vaccines as they were being authorized under "emergency provisions" rather than the regular approval process.  Now, few if any are offering that refuge.  If the vaccines are highly effective then older residents who have been vaccinated should have little to fear from those of us who are unvaccinated rather it is us who should be concerned. At the very least we should be able to offer evidence of positive antibody titers or previous infection as provisions for avoiding vaccination and or wearing N95 face masks while providing patient care.    The real civil crisis likely won't occur unless mandates start to appear outside the health care worker setting in to everyday life with things like the proposed "vaccine passports".  

No one assured you that employers wouldn't mandate the covid vaccines in the future.  Are you proposing that the government tell private industry what they may or may not require...for customers or employees...relative to approved vaccinations?

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

7 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

You even quoted (but didn't cite) a survey which highlighted that for too many republicans,  vaccination decision-making IS a political issue. The 45th president politicized the messaging and lied about covid for a year.  That influences people as evidenced but the increased vaccine reluctance among republicans. 

You single out those who oppose for political reasons but don't address the fact that black health care workers are declining at an even greater rate (around 50%).  Also those with less education (or in our modern world I would call them those who are less indoctrinated) also decline at around 45% in the same survey.  Still, I would encourage people to follow their own counsel and leave their jobs rather than be forced into a relatively untested vaccine.  Let the health care system collapse under the weight of its totalitarian impulses if that is the direction they choose to go.  I would rather liver on BLM land as a nomad than succumb to such hegemony. 

[toomuchbaloney]

2 hours ago, myoglobin said:

You single out those who oppose for political reasons but don't address the fact that black health care workers are declining at an even greater rate (around 50%).  Also those with less education (or in our modern world I would call them those who are less indoctrinated) also decline at around 45% in the same survey.  Still, I would encourage people to follow their own counsel and leave their jobs rather than be forced into a relatively untested vaccine.  Let the health care system collapse under the weight of its totalitarian impulses if that is the direction they choose to go.  I would rather liver on BLM land as a nomad than succumb to such hegemony. 

I didn't single out anything. I provided a citation for your quoted passage and then provided additional information for context. 

So, yeah, as you point out, the majority of vaccine refusal is the result of bad information, misplaced fears and political indoctrination combined with a poorly educated general public. 

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

According to the NY Times, 107.5 million people in the US have received at least one dose of vaccine, with rare reports of serious side effects. As far as I know, no deaths have been attributed directly to the vaccines. I would say that is a substantial amount of testing. 

Compare that to 30.7 million cases of COVID-19, resulting in 554,000 deaths, and a significant number of long term side effects (I think I saw one source report 10% of those testing positive). And persons of color are are at higher risk for death and hospitalization. 

But sure, this is about freedom, and hegemony, and right to choose. At least a nomad on BLM land would be at low risk to infect others. 

 

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

1 hour ago, nursej22 said:

According to the NY Times, 107.5 million people in the US have received at least one dose of vaccine, with rare reports of serious side effects. As far as I know, no deaths have been attributed directly to the vaccines. I would say that is a substantial amount of testing. 

Compare that to 30.7 million cases of COVID-19, resulting in 554,000 deaths, and a significant number of long term side effects (I think I saw one source report 10% of those testing positive). And persons of color are are at higher risk for death and hospitalization. 

But sure, this is about freedom, and hegemony, and right to choose. At least a nomad on BLM land would be at low risk to infect others. 

 

I believe the vaccine to likely be safe and effective but to say there have not likely been at least some deaths attributed is not very reasonable. Consider the following data from the CDC's webpage:

Over 145 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through March 29, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 2,509 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS.

Now we assume that an otherwise healthy person who contracts Covid and subsequently dies within a month or so died from Covid. Why would we not apply a similar standard for the vaccine?  Here is one case likely associated with vaccine death  https://mynbc15.com/news/coronavirus/death-of-healthy-mom-after-covid-vaccine-under-investigation  .

Here is another case with a reasonable probability of being related to the vaccine: https://www.ksnt.com/capitol-bureau/kansas-womans-death-after-covid-19-vaccination-raises-safety-concerns-state-health-officials-weigh-in/ . Here is yet another case that may be related https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/health/covid-vaccine-death.html  and yet another case reasonably related https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2021/02/16/former-detroit-tv-anchor-dies-one-day-after-taking-covid-vaccine/  .

We are talking about being forced to take a vaccine or lose our jobs and in the future possibly worse (like loss of freedom to travel).  According to Pew at least 30% say they will not get vaccinated https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2021/03/05/growing-share-of-americans-say-they-plan-to-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-or-already-have/ (and if that many will admit more probably feel that way).  If this isn't a matter of civil liberties then nothing is. 

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

14 hours ago, myoglobin said:

We are talking about being forced to take a vaccine or lose our jobs and in the future possibly worse (like loss of freedom to travel).   

Loss of freedom to travel is worse that job loss? 

Who is preventing this "freedom to travel? " Airlines? Other countries? 

In the mean time, 530 people in the United States died yesterday, from COVID-19. 

 

[myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN]

33 minutes ago, nursej22 said:

Loss of freedom to travel is worse that job loss? 

Who is preventing this "freedom to travel? " Airlines? Other countries? 

In the mean time, 530 people in the United States died yesterday, from COVID-19. 

 

Yes and more than 1000,00 probably died  from smoking related causes, but no one is even proposing banning smoking. Meanwhile I have had two clients commit suicide in the last month in part from THC induced depression but THC was considered an "essential business" even during the most stringent phases of covid lockdown.  Also, many including Dr. Fauci are discussing Covid "passports" enforced by the private sector.  Meanwhile we have over a hundred thousand illegal immigrants crossing the border each month who undergoing absolutely no covid testing and are quite unlikely to ever be compelled (or even offered in many cases) vaccination.  

Also, no I don't think that loss of freedom to travel is  worse than loss of jobs, but it is a fundamental liberty under the Constitution. I believe that the United States, Canada and the rest of the world is drifting towards government controlled authoritarianism such as currently being practiced by the Chinese communist government (where the virus either escaped from a lab or was introduced via poor food hygiene practices).  

[macawake, MSN]

On 4/5/2021 at 6:34 AM, myoglobin said:

Among frontline health workers, half of Black workers, 45% of workers without a college degree, and four in ten Republican and Republican-leaning workers say they are not confident the COVID-19 vaccines available in the U.S. have been properly tested for safety and effectiveness. About 1 in 5 of each of these groups also say they will definitely not receive a COVID-19 vaccine.

20 hours ago, myoglobin said:

The same survey found that black individuals (who as a whole are less conservative) declined vaccination at an even greater rate (50%) than conservatives.  Thus, it isn't only political leaning that guides this. Also this is a survey of healthcare workers. You can count on the general population resistance being even more firm.

You haven’t provided a link to the survey you’re referencing but I’ll take the numbers at face value.

Isn’t it true that many black people for understandable reasons have a distrust towards the medical community and pharmaceutical companies due to historical mistreatment? I assume that at least in part, explains why they appear less likely than others to want to vaccinate. It is in my opinion very unfortunate since a black American appears to have an almost three times as high risk to be hospitalized due to a Covid-19 infection compared to their white counterparts. And the risk of dying from a Covid infection is almost twice that of a white American. So it would seem that they could really benefit from a high vaccine coverage. Benefit as in lives saved. 
 

---

https://www.CDC.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-race-ethnicity.html
 

What are in your opinion, the reasons that people without college degrees and Republicans are more hesitant towards getting vaccinated? It seems pretty obvious that for the latter group, politics is a factor.

 

In my country they won’t ask about your poltical persuasion when they do surveys on vaccine acceptance in the population. It’s not regarded as a factor that influences choice regarding vaccines. I think it’s safe to say that vaccines have been politicized in the U.S. 

The most recent survey released today, shows that more than 91% of respondents plan on getting a Covid-19 vaccine. (69.5% answered that they definitely will and another 21.8% said that they likely will). Approximately 5% said that they wouldn’t get a vaccine and about 4% were still undecided. Yay ?

Another question that was asked in the survey was why respondents feel that getting vaccinated is important. People could list one reason or several reasons. I was really happy to see the results. 

In the youngest age group polled (18-29), 93% said they wanted to protect other people and 66% said they wanted to protect themselves. In the oldest age group (70 years and above), 94% answered that they wanted to protect themselves and 95% that they also wanted to protect other people. So yay again ??

My unit is staffed 100% by nurses and physicians. We got our vaccines in January and February and by now over 98% are fully vaccinated. It’s 100% voluntary and I expect it will remain that way. The overall population is generally positive towards vaccines and it doesn’t surprise me that licensed healthcare professionals are a further couple of percentage points more positively inclined.

[guest1163268]

1 hour ago, myoglobin said:

Yes and more than 1000,00 probably died  from smoking related causes, but no one is even proposing banning smoking.

 

* Possibly because smoking is a choice? Getting Covid, isn't! 

 

Meanwhile I have had two clients commit suicide in the last month in part from THC induced depression but THC was considered an "essential business" even during the most stringent phases of covid lockdown.  Also, many including Dr. Fauci are discussing Covid "passports" enforced by the private sector.  Meanwhile we have over a hundred thousand illegal immigrants crossing the border each month who undergoing absolutely no covid testing and are quite unlikely to ever be compelled (or even offered in many cases) vaccination.  

 

And that's the difference in education between Americans and Europeans Macawake and GrumpyRN. You will not believe how many Drs and nurses that I know who are supposedly educated, have almost no context for any of their conclusions. To get by in classes, you just need to pass exams and impress the professor. Your specialty is all that matters. It leaves us capable, but unlikely to be able to draw from a knowledge base to broadly understand the subject. It was really evident to me when I spent some years in high school in England and two semesters in St Albans. 

1 hour ago, myoglobin said:

Also, no I don't think that loss of freedom to travel is  worse than loss of jobs, but it is a fundamental liberty under the Constitution. I believe that the United States, Canada and the rest of the world is drifting towards government controlled authoritarianism such as currently being practiced by the Chinese communist government (where the virus either escaped from a lab or was introduced via poor food hygiene practices).  

* I think that's the function of govt which is why it's very important to choose wisely so they make wise choices, protecting us instead of fleecing us. But then socialism is a dirty word here despite America being the biggest Socialist country in history! 

Amazing, how poorly educated we are! 

[nursej22, MSN, RN]

1 hour ago, myoglobin said:

Yes and more than 1000,00 probably died  from smoking related causes, but no one is even proposing banning smoking. Meanwhile I have had two clients commit suicide in the last month in part from THC induced depression but THC was considered an "essential business" even during the most stringent phases of covid lockdown.  Also, many including Dr. Fauci are discussing Covid "passports" enforced by the private sector.  Meanwhile we have over a hundred thousand illegal immigrants crossing the border each month who undergoing absolutely no covid testing and are quite unlikely to ever be compelled (or even offered in many cases) vaccination.  

Also, no I don't think that loss of freedom to travel is  worse than loss of jobs, but it is a fundamental liberty under the Constitution. I believe that the United States, Canada and the rest of the world is drifting towards government controlled authoritarianism such as currently being practiced by the Chinese communist government (where the virus either escaped from a lab or was introduced via poor food hygiene practices).  

You are bouncing all over the place with your arguments, so it is hard to take you seriously. I get that you personally don't want the vaccine and no government entity is forcing it on you. Period. Yes, Dr. Fauci commented on them today, but after he was asked. He is in no way promoting vaccine passports. 

I doubt that 1000,00 died from smoking yesterday. I don't know where you live but n my area, smoking is prohibited in most indoor settings, except in private residences. And it has been shown to decrease death and disease. Many health insurance companies charge higher premiums for smokers, and some employers screen for nicotine use. I suppose you think a class action suit should be filed? 

Which part of the Constitution lists travel as a fundamental liberty? 

I do think governments are becoming more authoritarian, but I don't lay that on China.