Women's Right to Choose

CamMc · May 31, 2019

1 minute ago, lorias said:
So what circumstances would your mother have had to have for it to be ok for her to have aborted you. It's easy to pick and choose who deserves to be born and who doesn't by the ones who have already been born. Since all on this forum have taken biology and anatomy, they know that when it comes to a pregnant woman (or teenager), there are two bodies involved. And by the way, the 12 year old rape victim is such a small percentage of abortions that it is hardly worth discussing when it comes to abortion. The majority of abortions are from middle class to upper class women. Besides, why should someone have to be killed just because his or her father acted like an *** towards his or her mother. It's the rapist that needs punishing, not his child. I've heard that women who have been raped and then have an abortion say that the abortion was much worse. that's because it is not in our nature to kill our unborn children. You can call it whatever you'd like, but it's murder of the most innocent and helpless of human life. A wise man once said, "Isn't it interesting how those that are for abortion have already been born?"

NO ONE is saying everyone should have an abortion. The point of this whole thread is that places that are making it illegal to get an abortion, in some cases regardless of if it's rape or incest, that those few cases where it does happen can't have it. We all have to take off our shoes before going through airport security because something happened once. So saying rape in 12 year olds doesn't happen that often, is pointless because if it does happen that child should not have to live with it. There are plenty of people who grew up in abusive or bad environments that do wish their parents had an abortion. And then you have people like a family that was in the news back in my hometown that put their child in a cold shower and beat him to death, wouldn't it have been more humane for that child to have never been born than to be able to see and hear his parents beat him to death? Our department of child and family services is overworked, that particular case had a number of previous calls and nothing was done. So telling people that know they can't/shouldn't/don't want kids that they HAVE to have the child is not helping anyone. Are you saying that an alcoholic who gets pregnant who is not going to stop drinking through the pregnancy, but knows they wants an abortion should carry that child to term so that they can end up stuck in foster care with fetal alcohol syndrome because people want to adopt healthy babies.

Everyone of you arguing that abortion is wrong and it shouldn't be allowed, what are you doing to help promote things that will help others from being in that situation? Are you helping teach pre-teens/teens/young adults about COMPREHENSIVE sex education, not abstinence only, not just heterosexual sex education? Providing birth control that is easily accessible in both how to obtain it and how much it costs, as well as making sure they FULLY know how to use it? Are you donating to charities that help parents with the cost of raising kids? Are you voting for politicians who are going to expand healthcare for everyone? Yes, all people with uteruses need to be as proactive as possible in preventing unwanted pregnancies, as do all people producing sperm engaging in intercourse, but it is not for anyone to decide what one does with their body.

JadedCPN, BSN, RN · Jun 1, 2019

5 hours ago, lorias said:
So what circumstances would your mother have had to have for it to be ok for her to have aborted you.

ANY. Period. Of course now as a fully developed human being who can breathe independently without being in a host body, I am extremely thankful she did not have an abortion. But, it was HER body, HER right, HER choice. No questions.

TAKOO01, BSN · Jun 1, 2019

If my body my choice is a thing why cant their be a legal "my money my choice"? I suppose the money would be taken from taxes as it already is.

You actually already have "my money, my choice". You can choose your partner (as it seems you already have) whose beliefs align with your own. If all men were conscientious enough to do this, they would rarely have to pay child support for a child they did not want.

If it was made into a law, then i bet a large percentage of men, whether they wanted the kid or not, would choose not to pay, or pay so little that it wouldn't properly support the child. Look at how hard some men fight paying child support now under existing laws.

I know we're just talking about an imaginary law, but I cant see a law like that doing anything except pushing even more child care responsibility onto women.

KonichiwaRN · Jun 1, 2019

Maybe the actual question exists on:

Are zygotes considered as human beings thus, deserve the right to be protected?

Some interesting law though:

https://www.congress.gov/108/plaws/publ212/PLAW-108publ212.pdf

LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP · Jun 2, 2019

18 hours ago, KonichiwaRN said:
Maybe the actual question exists on:
Are zygotes considered as human beings thus, deserve the right to be protected?
Some interesting law though:
https://www.congress.gov/108/plaws/publ212/PLAW-108publ212.pdf

No, that's not the question, because they've shown that making it illegal doesn't make it happen any less, it just becomes more dangerous for the woman.

Anything about making it illegal is simply about punishing the woman, because the above is fact.

BSNbound21, BSN, RN · Jun 2, 2019

On 5/31/2019 at 8:16 AM, Persephone Paige said:
Maybe it was mentioned and I didn't see it, but what about the women who use pregnancy to get what they want from a man?
The ones who deliberately stop taking birth control and don't tell their lovers? The ones who poke holes in condoms?
It's been going on since the beginning of time. Very often neither sex has any respect for the wishes of the other. But, it doesn't support the dialog that women are the victims of everything.
Some women are victims, and I support those women. I do not blindly support women who fail to utilize their power when it counts most: prevention.

So what then about IUDs? Are women taking those incorrectly as well? You come off as extremely judgemental, by the way. I hope you aren't working in healthcare.

Hoosier_RN, MSN · Jun 2, 2019

"Some women are victims, and I support those women. I do not blindly support women who fail to utilize their power when it counts most: prevention"

Yes, women should be proactive in contraception. But men should be as well. Unfortunately, too many men lay contraception at the feet of the woman, then get pissed when she lies and tries to trap them by pregnancy, or when the woman's method fails and pregnancy occurs. Both parties are responsible!

Orion81RN · Jun 2, 2019

On 5/31/2019 at 4:00 AM, Persephone Paige said:
I'm not the one needing an abortion. I have never left my fertility in the hands of another. My body, my choice? It was always my body, my choice. That's why I didn't get pregnant. It's disgusting and laughable that women get pregnant by accident in this day and time. And anytime I state this, 10 people jump on and say, " my OCs didn't work!" I call BS~if you take that pill everyday, if you use foam/condoms for the rest of your cycle after a course of antibiotics, they work. It was always amazing to me how birth control worked for all the ARNPs and RNs who worked in Family Planning. But for the rest of the world it's not 100%! And they get on here with their 0.01% conception stories.
* rape, incest are not what I am referring to.

I'm 37. Married, together 15 years. While I actually really do want a child, my husband and I would not be able to make it work with my mental get, my physical health nor my finances. I stopped taking birth control at about 28 years old. The *** literally makes me suicidal on top of my already bad depressive issues. I have PCOS, endometriosis and uterine fibroids. After almost 10 years of not conceiving, I'm pretty damn certain I'm not ever going to.

BUT!!!! There is the absolute smallest chance that I technically could, so should my husband and I not have sex? Hell no. So if by some bizarre chance I ended up pregnant....it is MY mental health, MY physical health, MY finances in jeopardy. I CANNOT risk that. And nope! Not going to use a condom with my own dang husband. Point is, no matter HOW someone ends up pregnant, it is none of your damn business!!!

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Jun 3, 2019

On 5/29/2019 at 12:09 AM, LilPeanut said:
It has the potential to be a life. But until it can be separated from the person it is opportunistically feeding from, it is a parasite. (often a very loved parasite, but let's be honest about its role in the woman's body at that stage.)
So I'm 42. I have no intention to get married again. Does that mean that I should never be allowed to have sex again? (I can't in my case, but assuming I was normal)
FYI, it's not just men who dislike condoms. I also hate condoms. They were very uncomfortable for me always. I was the one begging to get everything tested so we could go without.
Again, since it seems to not be sinking in: making abortion illegal does not reduce the number of abortions. It only punishes women seeking them.
Social programs are what reduce the number of abortions. It is the only thing that reduces them.
So decreasing the number of abortions isn't what this law is going to do, you just want to make sure you kill as many women as possible while you do it?

People often say that AB being illegal doesn't reduce the number of them. Is there some proof of this?

A lot of people live without sex.

Kooky Korky, BSN, RN · Jun 3, 2019

On 5/31/2019 at 3:03 PM, CamMc said:
NO ONE is saying everyone should have an abortion. The point of this whole thread is that places that are making it illegal to get an abortion, in some cases regardless of if it's rape or incest, that those few cases where it does happen can't have it. We all have to take off our shoes before going through airport security because something happened once. So saying rape in 12 year olds doesn't happen that often, is pointless because if it does happen that child should not have to live with it. There are plenty of people who grew up in abusive or bad environments that do wish their parents had an abortion. And then you have people like a family that was in the news back in my hometown that put their child in a cold shower and beat him to death, wouldn't it have been more humane for that child to have never been born than to be able to see and hear his parents beat him to death? Our department of child and family services is overworked, that particular case had a number of previous calls and nothing was done. So telling people that know they can't/shouldn't/don't want kids that they HAVE to have the child is not helping anyone. Are you saying that an alcoholic who gets pregnant who is not going to stop drinking through the pregnancy, but knows they wants an abortion should carry that child to term so that they can end up stuck in foster care with fetal alcohol syndrome because people want to adopt healthy babies.
Everyone of you arguing that abortion is wrong and it shouldn't be allowed, what are you doing to help promote things that will help others from being in that situation? Are you helping teach pre-teens/teens/young adults about COMPREHENSIVE sex education, not abstinence only, not just heterosexual sex education? Providing birth control that is easily accessible in both how to obtain it and how much it costs, as well as making sure they FULLY know how to use it? Are you donating to charities that help parents with the cost of raising kids? Are you voting for politicians who are going to expand healthcare for everyone? Yes, all people with uteruses need to be as proactive as possible in preventing unwanted pregnancies, as do all people producing sperm engaging in intercourse, but it is not for anyone to decide what one does with their body.

And why must we teach that sex is ok for these kids? We should be teaching them to abstain until they are married. And to use some of the extremely effective BC that is available now.

And it is not the responsibility of those who disagree with you to fund all of the things you mention. It is the responsibility of each of us to make good choices. Sometimes we all fail, but we still seem to suffer the results.

BC was not as effective until fairly recently. Now it's almost harder to conceive than to prevent pregnancy.

And as long as tax dollars are used for AB's, those who pay them, all of those who pay them, not just pro choicers, get to speak out.

It's just too bad that the babies never get a choice. Let's see - burn me, slice and dice me, suction me to pieces, sell my parts, stab me in the neck. Shades of Eichmann, Mengele, Hitler, Mao, Fidel, Pol Pot, all of the other mass killers down through history.

Of course rape and incest should be exceptions to prohibition of AB's. Whoever doesn't see that is over the top.

CamMc · Jun 3, 2019

53 minutes ago, Kooky Korky said:
And why must we teach that sex is ok for these kids? We should be teaching them to abstain until they are married. And to use some of the extremely effective BC that is available now.
And it is not the responsibility of those who disagree with you to fund all of the things you mention. It is the responsibility of each of us to make good choices. Sometimes we all fail, but we still seem to suffer the results.
BC was not as effective until fairly recently. Now it's almost harder to conceive than to prevent pregnancy.
And as long as tax dollars are used for AB's, those who pay them, all of those who pay them, not just pro choicers, get to speak out.
It's just too bad that the babies never get a choice. Let's see - burn me, slice and dice me, suction me to pieces, sell my parts, stab me in the neck. Shades of Eichmann, Mengele, Hitler, Mao, Fidel, Pol Pot, all of the other mass killers down through history.
Of course rape and incest should be exceptions to prohibition of AB's. Whoever doesn't see that is over the top.

Oh, my bad, I didn't realize we should just tell people not to have sex outside of marriage and they will just stop having sex outside of marriage, just like we tell people not to drink and drive and then there are never accidents because of drivers under the influence, or telling people not to text and drive and yep those accidents never happen either. Or what about not using guns to kill others, to only use them for self defense or hunting, nope, they never get used for any other reason. I really hope you're not thick enough that you can't pick up on my SARCASM here, but that's how ignorant you appear to be that you need this spelled out for you. Yes, teaching people that abstinence is the only surefire way to prevent pregnancies is important, but clearly people are going to do what their "sinful" selves are going to do and they're going to have sex outside of marriage, so by preparing people, especially young people ALL the various ways to prevent pregnancies and the many ways they can be used ineffectively, we can help PREVENT people from needing abortions. You appear to want to punish people for having sex outside of marriage which is only important to those who have religious beliefs about this, so therefore doesn't apply to a large number of people.

I mention funding those things so that people don't find themselves in the position to need an abortion. How do we stop unwanted pregnancies? EDUCATION (and not just abstinence only because clearly that doesn't help, it doesn't seem like you must have experience with kids, but usually if you tell them not to do something, they're going to go do it), if people are so hell-bent on eliminating abortions, then they need to focus on ways to make it so that people don't feel a need to have one.

Clearly you have not seen the NUMEROUS posts on here stating that because of the Hyde Amendment the only abortions that are covered by tax payers dollars are those for emergent situations such as rape, incest, and risk to mother's life, which you have agreed are situations in which abortion could be allowed. Also, as previously mentioned by another poster, I don't agree with war, but my tax dollars go to paying the costs of war. I don't have kids but my tax dollars (which I fully support), go to schools, but I care that future generations continue to get the best education they can.

Here's a little research for you: https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/sex-and-hiv-education this shows that only half of the states even require that sex education be taught, the rest leave it up to?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/ss/ss6713a1.htm- and this here shows a detailed study of states abortion rates.

I'm not sure what listing serial killers has to do with anything? A serial killer is: "A person who commits a series of murders, often with no apparent motive and typically following a characteristic, predictable behavior pattern." So one person having an abortion once, heck maybe even two times is a serial killer, especially when they do have a clear motive, to not have a child? Pretty sure that's not how that works.

LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP · Jun 3, 2019

3 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:
People often say that AB being illegal doesn't reduce the number of them. Is there some proof of this?
A lot of people live without sex.

This is an old article showing about maternal mortality in the different types of abortions, and how the number of women dying went down in an absolute sense.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2133995?seq=3#metadata_info_tab_contents

This one takes a more nuanced look, looking at other outcomes in their lives, in the babies' lives.

https://www.wired.com/story/abortion-bans-create-a-public-health-nightmare/

This one address rates of abortions comparing rates of where it is legal vs illegal - though illegal are always hard to track because of their illegal nature. The actual rates are likely higher than what are reported.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/sexual-and-reproductive-rights/abortion-facts/

Essentially, outlawing abortion isn't changing the fact that women still need the procedure.

This article cites a bunch of studies done in the U.S. comparing rates before/after legality/illegality.

https://medium.com/@gidmk/abortion-bans-dont-work-2c9fff7bb025

Some of the reasons for a paradoxical increase in abortion rates in highly restrictive countries are because abortion laws are frequently correlated with a more religious government, which will teach abstinence only and no other sex ed, and limit the use of birth control because it is seen as an abortion as well by some religious groups.

3 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:
And why must we teach that sex is ok for these kids? We should be teaching them to abstain until they are married. And to use some of the extremely effective BC that is available now.
And it is not the responsibility of those who disagree with you to fund all of the things you mention. It is the responsibility of each of us to make good choices. Sometimes we all fail, but we still seem to suffer the results.
BC was not as effective until fairly recently. Now it's almost harder to conceive than to prevent pregnancy.
And as long as tax dollars are used for AB's, those who pay them, all of those who pay them, not just pro choicers, get to speak out.
It's just too bad that the babies never get a choice. Let's see - burn me, slice and dice me, suction me to pieces, sell my parts, stab me in the neck. Shades of Eichmann, Mengele, Hitler, Mao, Fidel, Pol Pot, all of the other mass killers down through history.
Of course rape and incest should be exceptions to prohibition of AB's. Whoever doesn't see that is over the top.

Because not everyone is going to get married. Not everyone is religious. There is no non-religious reason that someone has to get married. And for the people who never marry, you think they should never be allowed to have sex?

While people can live without sex, it's very unpleasant to do so, if you want to be able to have sex. It's a very basic drive in our bodies and minds, and not one that is easily thrown away. Trust me, I know this for certain.

Additionally, I do not think it is good or healthy to only have sex with one person. You don't know what your sexual compatibility might be. That is important. Many people blow it off, but again, I know this for certain.

I have dyspareunia, which means it is painful when I have sex. I didn't wait for marriage, but I only had sex with my now ex husband. If I had had sex with more people, I might have realized there are people I am better anatomically matched with (not a factor of size/girth, just random how things fit together) and might not have gone into a marriage with no ability to enjoy sex, which alone isn't the only thing, but it is an important thing to help bonding, stress and relaxation. I thought I was asexual in truth.

Then, after my marriage ended, I found someone with whom I had no pain with sex. It was amazing - turns out I wasn't asexual, I just didn't like sex that hurt me like that. That relationship sadly ended due to my lack of ability to have children anymore, and I've not been able to have sex since. Before I met the boyfriend, I would need to get drunk to have sex. It helped kill the pain and make me less anxious about the coming pain. I would need to be drunk nearly to unconsciousness at this point to decrease my anxiety about the pain. Plus, while there may be others out there who I "fit" with anatomically, I am not prepared to go through however many people who hurt me during sex to find that person. Essentially, once I knew what sex should feel like, I can't go back to how it was before.

Now, that's TMI for some, but my case is not unique. There are a lot of women with dyspareunia, and they will be helped by having different partners, trying to find one they "fit" with.

Sex isn't a big deal in a relationship until one party doesn't want it and the other party does.