Women's Right to Choose

[River&MountainRN]

I haven't seen this conversation come up on AllNurses, even after Scrubs Mag addressed the erosion of women's right to choose. I apologize if this is too much of a hot-button issue to open up for discussion, but I'm curious as to where folks on here stand when it comes to the increase in states passing restrictive abortion laws, in some cases nearly eliminating it altogether. If the mods are afraid, like I am (especially after seeing how some of the Facebook discussions devolved after Scrubs Mag posted their article there), that this can't remain a civil discussion, please feel free to take it down now. I just feel that this is an important discussion that needs to take place. After Missouri Rep. Barry Hovis spoke of the vast majority of rape being date rape and "consensual rape", Virginia State Sen. Steve Martin (R) stated "A pregnant woman is just a “host” that should not have the right to end her pregnancy", and VP Pence's comments about being "proud to be part of pro-life administration", I'm feeling increasingly disturbed about this country's lack of regard toward women.

[Horseshoe, BSN, RN]

8 hours ago, Kooky Korky said:

And why must we teach that sex is ok for these kids? We should be teaching them to abstain until they are married. And to use some of the extremely effective BC that is available now.

Why should "we" be teaching this? Many of us do NOT believe that everyone needs to be virgins when they get married. Many of us do NOT believe there is anything wrong with sex before marriage. Many of us believe that responsible sexual behavior consists of consistent use of birth control in the context of a loving monogamous relationship. Others have even more liberal (not referring to the political) viewpoints on what constitutes "acceptable" sexual behavior.

We need to teach that abstinence is the only sure-fire way to avoid pregnancy, not that abstinence is "good" and sex before marriage is "bad." Teach your own kids that if you like, but leave my kids out of it.

Accurate and comprehensive sex education is a must, covering everything from birth control to STDs. Easy access to cheap (if not free) contraceptives is a must if we want to decrease the numbers of ill advised or unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

Preaching religious values to people who may not practice your religion is a futile endeavor. In fact, preaching those religious values to those who DO practice your religion has been somewhat of a flop as well. Human nature resists very strongly attempts to shame sexual behavior away.

[Orion81RN]

On 6/2/2019 at 10:40 PM, Kooky Korky said:

Of course rape and incest should be exceptions to prohibition of AB's. Whoever doesn't see that is over the top.

If one is arguing abortion is murder, one must stay consistent. If abortion is murder, (which it isn't, but anyway) then it's still murder if it's from rape/incest. So why the exception to rape/incest? Suddenly you're ok with "murder?" Or perhaps bc you can finally view it for what it is. A medical procedure.

[PeakRN]

On 6/5/2019 at 1:17 PM, Orion81RN said:

If one is arguing abortion is murder, one must stay consistent. If abortion is murder, (which it isn't, but anyway) then it's still murder if it's from rape/incest. So why the exception to rape/incest? Suddenly you're ok with "murder?" Or perhaps bc you can finally view it for what it is. A medical procedure.

I doubt most prolife advocates are morally okay with abortion in rape, but the chance of winning an argument or passing a law that also excludes is far less likely to happen.

Let me put this into a different hot button topic. If you could pass a gun control law that prevented 99% of deaths from gun violence and had an okay chance of having public support or a law that would prevent 100% of gun violence but would have only a very small chance of support which would you try to build support for? If you know that there is no chance the latter would ever pass then is it really morally okay to try rather than try to garner support for for the former?

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

Had to watch a severly deformed newborn die because he was missing the skeletal structure required for breathing. If this horrible death could have been prevented with an abortion, I'm all for it. No parent should have to watch a baby die post partum. The mom, in the case above, was high on crack (they need a dose before coming in to deliver) and wasn't aware what was going on so she was spared that.

[Orion81RN]

On 6/6/2019 at 4:43 PM, PeakRN said:

I doubt most prolife advocates are morally okay with abortion in rape, but the chance of winning an argument or passing a law that also excludes is far less likely to happen.

Let me put this into a different hot button topic. If you could pass a gun control law that prevented 99% of deaths from gun violence and had an okay chance of having public support or a law that would prevent 100% of gun violence but would have only a very small chance of support which would you try to build support for? If you know that there is no chance the latter would ever pass then is it really morally okay to try rather than try to garner support for for the former?

I understand what you mean, but let's look at the actual quote. "Of course rape and incest should be exceptions to prohibition of AB's. Whoever doesn't see that is over the top." It sounds pretty clear to me that this person is morally ok with one reason but not morally ok with others. This person goes one further stating that if one doesn't agree then THAT person is over the top. Doesn't sound like a compromise as you suggested. It sounds like a personal conviction.

[Monkey Nurse, ASN, RN]

On 5/18/2019 at 5:32 PM, sarolarn said:

As nurses it's important for us to remain objective and advocate for our patients, and these policies do not allow us to do so and force healthcare professionals to act in their own self-interest to avoid life in prison. We as clinicians live in uncomfortable situations, and this is one of them. I feel that although it is a hot-button issue that leaves many of us fearful of having open discussions, we need to speak up together (I mean politically, nationally, broadcast it and show up at the polls) to advocate for everyone that will suffer under these laws. There are so many vulnerable populations affected by this and the only way to address it is to speak up.

I can't say I've ever met anyone who used an abortion as birth control, and I feel like viewing this issue through this lens is exactly how we got into this mess: abortions are for loose women who make irresponsible choices and they don't put any thought into terminating a pregnancy because they're loose and irresponsible.

This is not the case in the vast majority of pregnancies, and for the minor percentage of people who do view it as birth control, it's none of my g.d. business.

I am not disagreeing with you at all really- Just wanted to say it is not our g.d. business until you are in primary care lol!

I've gone from the OB ward to primary care. I have two special cases of women who have made it my business to care because one comes in for plan B every month, sometimes twice a month, and also for pregnancy tests, despite having a prescription for birth control that she doesn't use. Another comes in pregnant, gets and abortion, gets an IUD, gets the IUD out a few weeks later, gets pregnant, and terminates again. Then comes the opposite when a patient with ETOH and drug addiction is pregnant, not receiving prenatal care, transient in living quarters, cannot remember how many pregnancies and births she has had (>14) and doesn't have custody of any of them. All were born drug addicted and many of those kids have other issues. You'd just about pay this person to use plan B, have an abortion or get her tubes tied.

We can't fix them all...and for those cases choice is an important right.

[VioletKaliLPN, LPN]

I am on those women that has been accused of using abortion as birth control, but I have zero regrets and advocate for contraception AND abortion.

I was great about using BC pills, until I had a bi polar manic phase due to not being able to afford my meds that month because of car issues. Everything within my life went chaotic, I did not take my BC pills- simple as that. I still had sex though, I was married and not going to NOT have sex. We were both college students just getting by.

I was 20 when I had my first abortion at 7w 5 days pregnant, and I had an IUD inserted while I was still asleep from the anesthesia. WINNING. IUDs are awesome, BTW. Life began to look up! I qualified for pt assistance for meds, and have been stable ever since..

Age 22, just 2 years after having my IUD inserted, I was pregnant. Crap, so I had my second abortion and then had another IUD inserted because they ARE very effective.

Fast forward 12-13 years later. I had my tubes tied, never had another unwanted pregnancy.

I graduated college, traveled the US and the world, I am VERY fortunate. To this day I am a travel Nurse and road trip all of the time.

My life has been great, I have no regrets as far as my abortions are concerned. I ended up working for the same abortion provider until he retired in 2012.

I had amazing medical care, the Nurse anesthetist, RN/LPN staff, and physician, were all amazing.

I am thankful that we have choices, each and every one of them.

I believe in CHOICE. No coersion, no threats, just support a woman in any choice she makes.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

On 5/23/2019 at 3:13 PM, Scrunchkin78 said:

Apples and oranges. A person designated as a healthcare power of attorney is legally a "surrogate" meaning that they are making decisions as the comatose patient would have chosen for themselves if they were conscious. A baby hasn't developed to the point to be able to make choices so therefore a woman cannot be a "surrogate" decision-maker. The woman is either making choices based on her own needs or desires or she is acting as a guardian.

Also - is it really okay to kill a baby just so they don't have to grow up poor? Is being poor really so bad that we should kill people rather than have them live that way??? The same goes for fostering... is the foster care system so bad that we should just kill any kids that are in it and put them out of their misery? It is not ethical or moral to kill something based on a POTENTIAL life they may experience. That's like killing a "criminal" before they can possibly commit the crime... it doesn't work.

On 5/23/2019 at 3:23 PM, Scrunchkin78 said:

I think that teratogenic deformities, depending on the severity, is a reasonable use of abortion, as is mental health. If a girl/woman may commit suicide because of the pregnancy then absolutely save the woman. Saving one life is better than losing two. But what you are saying is it is better to be dead than experience trauma. If that were the case then you might as well wipe out the entire human race - trauma, to one degree or another, is a fact of life. Experiencing trauma creates resilience. While trauma in of itself is not a good thing, however learning and growing from it is. You are choosing to kill a human based on the presumption of a type of life they may have.

You are being rabid and clueless. Trauma does NOT increase resilience. Some kids can handle adversity better than others because the resilience was built in before the trauma occurred. This is what is happening outside of your bubble - families are coming into the court system because of the first generation's addiction. Those would be the grandparents in their 30's. Now THEIR children, who also use drugs to soothe themselves, have kids in their mid-teens. Those products of the 1st and 2nd generation of addicts are now a 3rd generation (all in one usually tiny little house) living under the same roof. How is it possible that this 3rd generation of babies is going to grow to have food, shelter, comfort, undistracted parents, parents who know how to read and write.....How is it possible that these little babies are going to be "resilient.?" How can children of mentally incompetent parents EVER be cared for? We do NOT have foster homes sitting around to take them in. It's even difficult now to get placement for infants and they used to be easy. And I've also worked in ladies' prison so I see what happens when a lot of these kids grow up. Where do you think inmates come from? Happy houses free from grinding poverty? You are just so out of touch with the misery of the world created when these kids are born. No, I'm not suggesting that we actively force these women to abort but it does work to give us breathing space to help those families who can succeed instead of spending the bulk on services on those least able to benefit. At a yearly conference the bosses always make slots for foster kids who are doing well to come and speak of their ability to make it out there after they are 18, to remind us that sometimes our efforts are fruitful....but usually they aren't.

[Scrunchkin78, ADN, BSN, MSN]

It took you almost a whole year to think up that ***?? Return to your thinking chair and come back in a year when you have an argument worth my time.

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

On 5/28/2019 at 9:14 AM, Persephone Paige said:

You made a great case for abstinence here... God forbid women who are railing against misogyny learn something about how their bodies work and if they can't lay off the bone for a few days, they at least try to prevent pregnancy by using 'foam and condoms' (free at most PHUs, but it would require mustering up the energy to go there) strictly, during this critical time.

Yeah, well I had a 13 year old patient who was using her own form of timing ovulation with body temperature; but she believed that she protected herself by turning up the thermostat in the room. You assume that all people are of average intelligence. You so sooooooooooo wrong:(

[subee, MSN, CRNA]

On 5/25/2019 at 5:43 PM, Scrunchkin78 said:

How do you know what mores existed over 3000 years ago? Is the Golden Rule a basic human construct in our DNA? Just look at the Sentinelese people, who are completely separated from any known religion... if you get close to their island they shoot you dead with arrows and hang your body on the beach. Native American tribes warred with each other and took slaves and trophy's as a matter of honor. Similar findings are documented across many tribal peoples. The natural state of being human is violence, we are nurtured into our morality. The Judeo-Christian culture has been around so long and is so prevalent that it has become embedded.

Okay. Try this one. How DO we know what mores existed over 3000 years ago (and BTW Judaism is older that that more than a millennial...but how can we even know that is true?)?. We KNOW what mores existed over 3,000 years ago because they are written on a stone which resides in the British Museum in London. They were written BEFORE the laws of Moses. Now, I'm pretty sure that these dates are all somewhat tenuous except for the stele of the Hammurabi which can be confirmed by scientific dating. It is usually assumed by historians that the laws of Moses are based on previous codes of morality. The only law of his that is different is the affirmation of a single G-d. Check it out. It's quite beautiful and proof that we don't need religion to be humane or just.